This interview was conducted at the NDIA Small Arms Symposium at Ft. Benning, Georgia, with a follow-up in Vero Beach, Florida.

SAR: Reed, give me a background on yourself and tell me how you got into the business.

Reed: In the mid 70’s, I was competitively pistol shooting and had spent quite a bit of time with the Secret Service pistol camp. They’ve done a lot of training in Florida. I was shooting the revolver for police combat. I had spent a lot of time at Beltsville, and they spent a lot of time in Florida. I had met one of the Secret Service agents that had gone down to Little Creek, Virginia. While he was down there, he had found that they had some Stoner 63’s that were inoperable. He told the armorer there that he knew a guy that had parts for Stoners and that he could call me, and I could probably get his guns working. I went up to Little Creek somewhere in the mid 70’s and repaired a bunch of Stoner machine guns there on site. I had the parts and the knowledge. They had crossed some of the 63’s with the 63 A’s, but I got the guns up and running.

SAR: How did you become interested in Stoners, and find all the parts and weapons you have?

Reed: In the mid ‘70’s, I was at a gun show and a friend of mine gave me a barrel for what appeared to be some type of a machine gun with a carrying handle on it. It was in a canvas, asbestos-lined bag, and I had no idea what that barrel fit, or what it was. I started asking everybody I knew what it was to, and it was like a giant Easter egg hunt trying to figure out what the barrel went to. Finally, I found out the barrel was for a Stoner 63 automatic rifle, which was the one with the offset front sight. From there, I questioned what a Stoner was, and began researching everything I could find on the Stoner and the Stoner system. I became more and more involved in it and I bought a couple guns form different people. Roger Cox, of Law Enforcement Equipment Company, was pretty heavy into them. He had a Stoner 63, that I bought from him. I started chasing more leads down, finding a couple more Stoners, and some parts here and there. Then one day, I called Mr. Stoner down at his house and introduced myself. He had a business up at Fort Pierce, which was about 5 miles away from my shop. One day, he stopped by for lunch. We talked, and our friendship grew from then on.

SAR: What about items from Cadillac Gage?

Reed: In about 1981, Stoner had a warehouse up in his factory in Port Clinton, Ohio, which he wanted to clean out. I went up to look at it all, and we loaded up 3 semi-truck loads of stuff. It was 13 tons of Stoners, Stoner parts and tooling.

SAR: How did Mr. Stoner collect so much ?

Reed: All this stuff had been given or sold to him at the end of the project. They had spent so much money for so many things, chasing so many things, that they just gave it to him for his efforts.

SAR: When did you establish a working relationship with Mr. Stoner?

Reed: It was shortly thereafter. We did a lot of projects together. I did some consulting work for him on the 5mm Advanced Combat Rifle Project. We would go to shows together because of our close proximity. We would travel together, have lunches together, and discuss different projects together. We built a pistol together, the SR 25 we did one summer, and we had a lot of other projects as well.

Trey: He was very open with his information as a mentor. He appreciated the fact that someone was interested in his work. He was happy to share his knowledge.

Reed: Every day, when I would go home from work, I would get books out, and research the older guns. You amass a knowledge that helps you to find the rare guns that are out there. When the book The Black Rifle came out, there were pages and pages of guns in there that I didn’t know existed. Today, I own many of those same guns-not one like it, but that exact, same gun. I consider myself very lucky that I was able to be at the right place at the right time. I got all of Stoner’s personal guns, which were not a lot, but were very significant and meaningful due to the fact that he bothered to keep them. He had an H&K that was a very early ‘60’s .308. I have a picture of him shooting that same gun. From there, he introduced me to the Fairchild Corporation, and I was able to buy all of their guns which were the early protoypes of the ones that he did not own, or have in his name. I was able to accquire Stoner’s guns, Fairchild’s guns, Chuck Dorchester’s guns, the president of Armalite, the Armalite guns from Burt Jenks, as well as Sam Cumming’s guns and the Colt collection. The chance of one person being able to put all these collections together is phenomenal! It has taken me over 20 years to do this.

SAR: Did one thing lead to another?

Reed: On some things, one thing did lead to another, but on others, it was just pure luck! Absolutely being in the right place at the right time, and the right person, and dealing the right cards. I cannot imagine the luck of some of these occurrences, and the odds of finding them. I can show you some parts and pieces where I found half of the gun in California, and the other half in the Colt factory.

Trey: Mr. Stoner, himself, when he would walk in and see the collection, couldn’t believe it! He would see different stages of his life, from when he was in totally different sides of the ocean, all in one place. All of the evolutions, and all brought back together in one spot, has been quite a feat. A lot of people really don’t understand the magnitude of the project with the detail and energy that went in to it.

Reed: Let me give you another example. I found a belt-fed AR-10 at the Colt factory. Five years later, I found the bolt and carrier in a private collection in California. The owner knew it was an AR-10, but he didn’t know it was of a one of a kind prototype part. Five years before I got the gun out of Colt, I had gotten the charging handle and the bipod from a lady who’s husband had died, but who had bought it from Armalite. So five years before I got the gun, I got some parts for it, and five years after I bought the gun, I got the rest of the parts for it. It is finally all put back together. What is so phenomenal about all this, is acquiring parts that are one of a kind, and with only one gun built. I found a box of parts in 1974 that I bought. In 1986, Mr. Stoner transferred Stoner 63, serial number one to me. The lower trigger group was missing off the gun, it was just the receiver. I looked in the box of parts I had bought in 1974, and found the lower trigger group that matched up to gun number one. I determined this by examining photographs of serial number one, which had the same scratch as one of the lowers in my box of 200 to 300 parts. The chance of seeing that scratch and putting that back together, knowing that it fit that gun was one in a million.

SAR: How did you get started with the Military and silencers?

Reed: A month or two after I fixed the Stoners at Little Creek, the SEALs had a problem with what they called ‘vapor lock’. Basically, they were shooting the green tip Supervel subsonic ammo in the Smith and Wesson 39’s with a screw on Hushpuppy. This system had a slidelock and the high pressure cases would stick in the chamber. When they went to eject the cartridge case, the extractor would climb out over the cartridge case. The gun would have a malfunction because it couldn’t clear that cartridge case once the extractor ripped off the side of the rim. I did a lot of work with that and found it mostly to be an ammo issue. I built them a better system using the old 92 Beretta. It was not a military gun back in the late 70’s. I spent time doing that and improving the old Hushpuppy design, which was a Smith and Wesson product on the old 39’s and later the 59’s. The Beretta had a stronger, wider extractor which grabbed the cartridge case, even with that high pressure ammo, the Beretta would actually work better. So we built slide locks on the Berettas, and built thread-on suppressors.

In the late 70’s, a requirement came out of JSSAP for suppressors for the Air Force. We built a product and submitted a proposal and lost. Two companies got an award-one of them was Smith and Wesson, and the other one was Beretta. I didn’t get an award, so I funded the project with my own money. I called the project Snap On. It was an aluminum suppressor with wipes, and simplified the system. In the early 80’s, they were ready to test this program. The Air Force went out to buy parts for the Hushpuppy as the baseline. I just happened to be the only manufacturer for the Navy at that time making parts for the Hushpuppy. When I found that they were going to be doing these tests, I asked the testing committee if they would throw my gun and product into the test. I explained to them I had proposed my system earlier, but didn’t win the contract. The government had spent a quarter of a million dollars with each company to develop this product.

SAR: Had you been supplying the wipes?

Reed: I had been supplying the wipes to the Navy all during that time. The wipes were in a little can, prestacked in a little aluminum sleeve, with the sleeve rolled up. It looked like a roll of quarters, with 8 wipes in it, pre-X’ed. This assembly was put in the front of the original Hushpuppy, with a spring, “O” rings, and a little mechanism inside there. That was the original Smith and Wesson design that they copied from Walther, in Germany. My system used threads, it didn’t use springs, and was a much simpler system. When they got through with the tests and the trials from the Air Force at Eglin, my suppressors won out over the Smith and Wesson and the Beretta. In the mid’80’s, they bought 3800 of these systems from us. They sent us the barrels, and we put the barrel extensions on, and gave them back a barrel and a suppressor in a little plastic box. That was one of the first major contracts that we had on suppressors.

In 1982, which was prior to that, the Navy had gone out on the street, and Mickey Finn, Don Walsh, and myself had proposed silencers for the M16-A1, that the Navy had. It had a very strong endurance test. It had to fire 200 rounds in a very short period of time, and the suppressor had to live through that. Our suppressor was very large, very robust, and used double wall tubing. Our suppressor was the only one that lived through the endurance test. The others would melt down. Don Walsh’s suppressors made out of aluminum would only go about 110 to 115 rounds. It actually burst on the very first trial, so we won it by endurance. It was a fairly large contract in ’82 for us. It was about 1400-1500 Navy suppressors made out of stainless steel. These had a barrel collet on the back of it. You took the flash hider off the gun and threaded the silencer on the end of the barrel. You tightened this collet and it squeezed down on the barrel to make it sturdy. This also kept it in alignment and kept it from vibrating off. It was heavy, and big, but it was effective. It was about 30 – 32 DB’s, which is pretty good. It was an inch and 3/4 in diameter, and it was about 12 inches long. Part of it telescoped over the end of the barrel.

Trey: I think a side note to that is that at the time, he was involved in (orange) grove care. We had a small machine shop set up. I can remember that summer working on those Navy cans, with one other person and myself in this little shop.

SAR: Which is much different from your facility today, which is pretty large?

Reed: Exactly. We didn’t realize that once you won the contract, then you had to figure out how to get it built. All we were looking to do was win the test. We didn’t have enough sense to know that once you got it, and it was a tar baby thing, that you had to figure out how to build it. We subcontracted some of it out, and did the rest in the shop. A local guy did the blackening of the stainless steel, and we did the engraving. Everything was done in a little Mom and Pop shop. At the time, it was the largest silencer contract that the Navy had ever bought. When the Air Force bought the 3800 Snap On’s, it was closer to the largest silencer contract the entire government had ever bought. We had won the two big, major silencer contracts in the ‘80’s that came out, even though the premier silencer technology house was Mickey Finn, where Doug Olson had been working. They had the leading technology at the time. We won not by default, but being in the right place at the right time, and paying attention to the requirements. I think their product was better than ours, but I don’t think their product totally met the requirements. It’s like wanting a fast car or a station wagon-it depends on whether you’re going to haul something to the dump or whether you’re going to go do a race. That was the early years with suppressors, up to the mid ‘80’s.

SAR: What was the next suppressor that you worked on?

Reed: It was a suppressor for Colt, who did it for DEA. It was an integral 9mm in the late ‘80’s. In ’86 or ’87, we did a suppressor for Colt, like an MP5-SD, only it was Colt 9mm. We vented the barrel, and built an intricate suppressor under the hand guard of the 9mm Colt submachine gun. At that time, I was quite cozy with Colt. I had been doing some work, being a subcontractor for the ACR program, the Advanced Combat Rifle. I did the muzzle break for it. I had gotten in with all their engineers, which helped us when we built the suppressor for their 9mm for DEA. In the late ‘80’s, we developed a suppressor for revolvers, using telescoped ammunition. It was called the Revolver Rifle and was based on the Ruger Blackhawk .44 magnum handgun frame. This was novel, because it was a short gun, light weight, and could come apart to go into a small briefcase. The ammunition used an o-ring gas seal and forcing cone to obtain maximum suppression. We built some very effective suppressors with this system. That was the first time we could get 30 caliber suppressors to go down to 116 DB. It was large, light weight, and a very effective suppressor.

SAR: By that time, would you say you had full machine shop capabilities?

Reed: Yes, we moved into our new building in 1990 and installed our four CNC machines, which were originally purchased in 1986. Today we have about 15 CNC machines. We have grown to about 92 employees, and we do a lot of other things now.

(Author’s note: Reed left at this point in the interview to attend another meeting and Trey Knight and Doug Olson continued the interview.)

SAR: The building you’re in now, you have about 2 other businesses. Can you tell me about them?

Trey: Lawmen’s and Shooters Supplies, is a law enforcement distributor company, selling other peoples products in the state of Florida and the Southeastern United States. Knights Armament Company, is the military side of the house. Knight’s Manufacturing is a company that we set up more for commercial business when the SR-25 was introduced. That was our first time out of the closet, so to speak, with a product we could take to shows and talk about. Mr. Stoner was on board with us fully at that time, allowing us to do things that we would have never been able to do before then.

SAR: Doug, when did you come on board?

Doug: I started to work at Knight’s in January of ’92. I was hired specifically as program manager on the Offensive Handgun suppressor. And at that time, they had the subcontract to Colt on the Offensive Handgun, which was in competition with H&K.

SAR: So you began working with Colt on the suppressor, and this transitioned to H&K?

Doug: That’s correct. At the end of that contract, both the Colt and H&K guns went to the Navy for trials. The H&K gun was the clear winner. The Knight suppressor was the clear winner. The follow-on contract was marrying the two together.

SAR: What were the challenges with this suppressor?

Doug: There were a lot of challenges, and this was a major project! Up to 1992, the state of the art was about 19DB reduction with a plain, dry, suppressor. Not very much. The problem was with the straight-through baffles, which have a large hole and a small outside diameter. It was a major step forward to try and meet the Navy’s requirement of 30 DB reduction. That seemed an incredible task at the time. Everybody knew that this was going to be a very severe challenge

SAR: Did you have a lot of trial and error, then?

Doug: (Laughing) Much! I spent almost two years working full time on this, trying to solve all the problems. We went through a lot of optimization on the baffle. We had a can that we could put the parts in and out of, and we went through a lot of different baffle configurations. We made a matrix of all the possible combinations of components, built them up, and tested them trying to figure out what to do. Some of the things we came up with weren’t obvious. We built them in both directions from where we were, and we were very lucky and very successful.

SAR: Did the manufacturing present many problems?

Doug: We were set up primarily as a machine shop. It turned out that this baffle and the entire can involved an awful lot of fabrication, tooling, and tig welding. That’s how we were able to keep the weight down, and get the suppressor to function so well. The baffle actually turned out to be a follow on from work that I had done with Qual-A-Tec and AWC. We actually dropped that baffle in and we changed how many we used in the can. We changed the shape, but that was what got us to the final solution.

Trey: I don’t think anyone else could have produced that suppressor, even once they had the technology. The manufacturing was almost as much of a challenge as the design was.

SAR: Did you exceed the requirements in the end?

Doug: In the end, we were never able to get to 30 DB dry, but we ended up with 27 DB dry. If you add a little water, we were getting 39 DB, which was unheard of prior to that. On the manufacturing side, once we won the contract, then it was how were we going to produce these things. We bought a welding robot, and a wire EDM. This gave us the capability of getting the bore through the center of the suppressor uniformly, and in line with all the parts.

SAR: Does the EDM burn a hole through the suppressor?

Doug: Yes, you start with an undersized hole, and then the wire puts a bore through the center hole that’s in absolute alignment. That has turned out to be one of the keys to making this a successful suppressor. That’s where H&K was having all their problems building the Mickey Finn suppressor. By the time you weld all these baffles together, and weld them in the tube, how do you machine a hole through the center of it and keep it straight? We found out we had to completely weld the suppressor together to get it to line. A good suppressor gets hot very fast, and so the challenge is how to handle the heat. How do you keep the baffles from melting down? You have to get the heat to the outside of the suppressor, and radiate it out, while keeping the inside from collapsing when it’s red hot.

SAR: Did you have to use any special materials?

Doug: Not on the handgun. We went to a 321 stainless, which is one of the better high temperature stainless steels. This material was enough to handle the volume of fire anticipated.

SAR: Tell me about the H&K SD suppressor.

Doug: What we did with all the H&K suppressors was to take the baffle stack we developed for the .45 Colt, and scale it down to 9mm. We made an all welded can, trying to use as much of that technology on the H&K suppressors. We did both the screw on short cans as well as the SD cans, which utilized the same baffle stack as the .45, and that worked very well. We were able to keep the size down to a 1 and 3/8th inch tubing. What we did was take the Colt Offensive Handgun suppressor and adapt it to become the H&K SD suppressor.

SAR: Did you achieve some dramatic reductions in DB’S with these cans, as well?

Doug: They’re very quiet, but I wouldn’t say it’s as dramatic as the .45, because it’s always easier to make the 9mm quiet. It’s certainly very quiet, very rugged, and more durable. To me, there’s a lot more important things to suppressors than how quiet they are. Everybody dwells on how quiet they are, but to me, it’s how long do they last. Most rounds in the military are used up in training. They’ll go out, take two or three guns with them, and run ten people through the shooting houses, putting several thousand rounds through a suppressor in a day. It’s the durability and no maintenance issues that count in the military. You can’t be changing out wipes thirty-seven times during the course of a day. What Knight’s has done is bring suppressors into the ‘90’s, so that they’re really user friendly.

SAR: Tell me about your current M16 suppressors.

Doug: The M4-QD is what we call it. When I came to Knight’s, they were working on a suppressor for the M16 carbine. They were looking at shortening the barrel, machining baffles on the lathe, milling parts, and putting it all together. There was always a durability problem. We tried putting tungsten carbide inserts in there to take the initial blast, which worked well, until it got so hot that the tungsten carbide cracked. Once that cracked, the whole suppressor was useless. We ended up going to real high temperature alloys, and welded a tube within a tube, which was the key to being structurally sound, and getting through all the tests. It would take 210 rounds within three minutes, and be able to go back into the field with a full compliment of ammo.

SAR: What’s the most number of rounds that you’ve heard have been through one of these M16 suppressors?

Doug: I don’t know, but I have heard they are using it on the M249 Minimi quite successfully. The SOCOM is issuing the M4 in large, unprecedented numbers. They are planning on buying 8000 of these. They are getting to be used more and more. Part of this is that if you are planning to “own the night”, you don’t want to give your position away with flash. That’s why you need a suppressor like ours for the M16. I know that Crane has put over 5000 rounds through our suppressors in testing, and there’s almost no loss of DB reduction.

Trey: We have suppressors in house that have over 10,000 rounds through them, and we haven’t had a failure yet.

SAR: Are these being issued to all the Services?

Doug: I’m not sure exactly who’s getting them. They’re being issued throughout SOCOM units.

Trey: That brings up an interesting point. We’re up against the ideology that a suppressor is only a sniper’s tool, or an assassin’s tool. There are so many other benefits that a suppressor gives you—properly done, there’s an increase in accuracy, the shot time is decreased due to reduced recoil, as well as other benefits. When you have a supersonic round, you’re going to have a ballistic crack. It’s going to be known that someone’s firing, anyway.

Doug: I think one of the big keys of the supersonic is that if you’re down range, and I shoot past you with supersonic, my position is much more masked than if I shoot past you with subsonic. Subsonic rounds are very directional. If your object is to come back from a mission alive, I would rather shoot supersonic. If the object is that you have to get in and out undetected, then, of course, you have to shoot subsonic. You’re at more risk using subsonic, because if there’s somebody out there when you shoot, your location is more compromised. I think the users are getting more training in the use of suppressors and ammunition. The future will see more and more suppressors used, including in regular army units. They will be a part of “owning the night”.

SAR: Tell me about the SOPMOD system.

Doug: Really, this has been a number of contracts. Reed started with the idea of coming up with ways to mount things to the M16 rifle. When I went to work for Reed, one of the things that they were doing was building some test guns for the Marine Corps. I became involved with that and helped come with the first prototype that mounted in place of the handguard. The more we worked with it, the more of a systems approach we’d take.

Trey: The SOPMOD kit is adding performance to a known weapon.

Doug: It’s going to keep moving forward. The kit is going to change over time. That’s the whole idea. As new pieces appear, they’ll be added, and as pieces become obsolete, they’ll be taken out. The suppressor became part of that kit really because it could be abused and used through all the training, and still survive. It is becoming more of a standard issue piece of equipment.

SAR: Are there any other products which you see yourself working on in the future?

Doug: Yes, as we go into the future, I see more and more suppressors for big guns. We’re expecting a contract from Holland for a 25mm gun, which is a discarding sabot gun.

SAR: How do you deal with the sabots?

Doug: It’s going to be interesting. What’s driving this is that their test range is beside an environmentally sensitive area, with nesting birds. We hope to build a suppressor that will at least take the muzzle blast out of that. They look at DB, not just as a peak, but based on an average. It’s going to be a challenge because the sabot starts to open up immediately upon exiting the muzzle. The suppressor has to accommodate this, and we’ll take our best shot at it. I’d like to do work on the 155mm, as I think there is a need there. How many cannon cockers do you know that have all their hearing? People need to look at the environmental side of suppressors. In Europe, they are accepted because if you go hunting, you don’t want to disturb anyone, or hurt your own hearing. This feeling that suppressors are only assassin’s devices is going to change slowly.

SAR: Tell me about your work with the .50 caliber.

Doug: One of my first projects at Crane was the .50 caliber sniper rifle. Back then, Qual-A-Tec was one of our contractors. We built an aluminum tube .50 cal suppressor with all titanium baffles. We were able to do some real good work with that. We were able to shoot 16 inch groups at 1500 meters, with the suppressor. I see a potential need there, but so far there hasn’t been a large contract for these.

Trey: We are finally getting our .50 caliber rifles into production and start working on the suppressor in the near future.

(Author’s note, Reed rejoins the group at this time).

SAR: Tell me about the Military Armament Corporation auction.

Reed: There were about 15 people there. It was a bankruptcy auction for the entire factory and inventory. It was cash and carry or certified check only. One guy, Fred Rexler, who was a large Class 3 dealer at the time, put in a bid for everything to be sold for $250,000. The auctioneer rejected it, and the auction lasted for 3 days. The most significant thing I remember was them trying to sell guns, but there were no buyers. They had pallets of Mac 10 .45’s, with 100 guns on a pallet. There were 3000 to 4000 guns all together. The auctioneer asked how many people wanted to buy a pallet at a minimum bid of $650. I raised my hand and bought a pallet of 100 guns for $650. The guy next to me told me I was crazy because they wouldn’t be good for anything other than bookends, and I was just wasting my money. I thought to myself that I had just thrown away $650. I raised my hand again when another pallet came up, and bought it. After a while, with no one else buying them, I questioned myself, and what I was doing. I owned two machine guns the day I walked into the auction-an MG 42 and a Mac 10. I walked out of that auction owning 750 NFA weapons. I bought all I wanted, and there were plenty left. Everyone was telling me I would never get them transferred to me, and I would never get my money back. We didn’t know if the government was going to destroy the guns, or if they would transfer them to us. The ATF was struggling with a federal judge and a bankruptcy auction, and since these were assets, the judge wanted them sold. The ATF said maybe they’ll transfer, and maybe they won’t.

SAR: Were these completed guns?

Reed: Most of them were completed guns. All were in boxes and packaged for sale, with matching suppressors in other boxes and lots for sale. I bought some of everything. I had $50,000 in cashiers checks that I took to the auction, and I only spent $11,000. I could have spent a lot more money, but I looked at it, and I was very conservative. If I had been more knowledgeable, I would have done better. At that time, I didn’t know what to get and what not to get.

SAR: What does a Mac 10 sell for today?

Reed: Somewhere between $850 and $1000. I still have 200 to 300 of them left.

SAR: Were you a Class 3 dealer at that time?

Reed: Yes, with my 2 machine guns. I was just setting myself up. I had no real knowledge of what to get or what not to get. I went by myself to the auction, but met Pedro Bello who sat next to me. He cost me a million dollars, and I remind him of that every time I talk to him. He scared me off from making money.

SAR: Who else was at the auction?

Reed: Romalee Skinner was there, the people from Interarms, Ron Martin, and others whose names escape me at this time.

SAR: How did you hear about the auction?

Reed: It was in Shotgun News, and it was just a blitz to state there would be a bankruptcy auction. Nobody really went, though. It was just a fluke that I went. After that, every time someone had an auction, there were a million people there, because they thought it would be like the Military Armament auction.

SAR: I want to thank all three of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me and the readers of the Small Arms Review.

SAR: When did you all get involved with suppressors?

Phil: I got involved back in the 70’s, around 1976. The first suppressed weapon that I bought was a M 11-380, with a Mac suppressor, the second one was really the one that got me going in suppressors, and that was a MAC suppressed pistol, a Mark I, with all those screen washers in it. After about a brick of ammunition, it wasn’t very quiet anymore, so I called Military Armament Corporation, and talked to Charles Pitts, who said they expected these things to have a service life of about 200 rounds, basically qualify where they’d be used on a mission and then deep-sixed. When I asked how you take them apart, Charles said they weren’t designed to take apart, so I figured out how to take it apart, and used a different packing material, Chore Girl, a scouring pad, and thought how this can be improved upon, so I did it.

SAR: Did you use the ropes back in those days, too?

Phil: Yes, I made the ropes out of the scouring pads, as I cut it into strips and twisted it into ropes. I started doing that under another guys license, S&S Arms, in Albuquerque who had a class 3 license.

SAR: Is S&S still around?

Phil: Yes. Sid McQueen, who changed his name to Sid Garrett, runs it with his partner, Don Packingham. Anyway, this had been my start and my improvement was to shorten the barrel a little bit, to put in a chamber in the front and a little barrel extension, packing fiberglass around the extension like a glass packed muffler. We called it the RST, which we later renamed and called the Mark II. I did that for a couple of years in the basement of the medical clinic where I worked on it all day on Saturday’s and all day on Sunday’s.

SAR: Did you have any training in that?

Phil: Yes, I did. As a matter of fact, it was an old Monarch Lathe, and it was the lathe I was trained on, as I used to work at Coleman Lamp and Stove in the summers in Wichita, KS. I worked in the model shop there making prototypes, so I had some machining experience. In 1977, I bought a lathe and started doing some of those things in my garage, and in 1978 I got my own license, which was the birth of Automatic Weapons Company. In 1983, I was doing enough business, and pretty much working full time to where it stopped being fun. At that time, one of my customers, Lynn McWilliams, said he’d take over the manufacturing, while I’d do the R & D, working on a royalty basis. I did some subcontract machine work and he started his Automatic Weapons Company in Houston, renamed to AWC Systems Technology. I still made a few things on my own. In 1989, he started to work with another designer, Mickey Finn, so we parted ways. I moved to Idaho in 1991, and about a year later, I met Jim and Mark.

SAR: What were some of the other things, other than the RST that you did in the early years?

Phil: Basically the model numbers are just letter designations. The RST was the Ruger RST pistol. There was the R10, which was the for the 10-22, the AR7 for the AR-7, the M22, which was the .223 suppressor for the M16’s, and the M76 for the Smith &Wesson 76, which later became the SG9. The Sten version of this can was called the SM2. I designed the Mark 9, and Tim Bixler made significant improvements in it, when he was the machinist for AWC, with interchangeability that I did not have on the prototype.

SAR: Was that on the end caps?

Phil: The rear mounts, with the original one built more like the SG9, where there was a sleeve that went in that was part of the rear mount and screwed into a support. Bixler’s real good at that and he worked for Lynn at the time. The Archangel 1was a renaming and a compilation of a couple earlier designs. I’d built several 22 muzzle suppressors over the years, starting in about 1978, and they went through various name changes and various variants. Near the end of Lynn’s and my relationship, Lynn rearranged some of the bits and combined some of the parts, and came up with the Archangel 1. There’s always some debate as to who really gets credit for that. The concept was to get rid of the first round pop. My original design was quieter, but had worse first round pop. He got rid of the first round pop by rearranging some parts, but degraded the performance
of the can.

SAR: Greg, how about your background.

Greg: I’ve been in the aerospace industry for 32 years. I’ve been general manager for the family owned shop for 22 years, doing everything including quoting the jobs, programming, figuring out how they’re going to run, fixturing, setting up the machines, and training the operators. I pretty much do everything. I’ve got an extensive background in machining, and we do a lot of the aerospace fittings in the aluminums and the high exotics, anywhere from Inconel to Rene’ 41. At one time, we were the second largest manufacturer of Rene’ 41 in the United States. We were doing a lot of stuff for the machine tool industry and the copper industry for tubing. Our mainstay is the quick disconnect couplings for the aerospace industry that go on jet engines. We have parts on the Cruise Missile and the Space Shuttle, and make parts for the Navy (nuclear level 1). We meet the quality requirements of the military, and are certified through Aeroquip for ISO 9000.

SAR: Before Gemtech was formed, didn’t you have your own suppressor business?

Greg: Yes, I’ve always been interested in firearms, and got my FFL about 16 years ago. Since I had all the manufacturing equipment, I got the manufacturers license. Then about 8 years after that, I got into the class 3, because I had some ideas for suppressors. It was during this time that I came up with the Slimline helical-style baffle and patented that. Al Paulson wrote an article for Machine Gun News on the Slimline. I incorporated into GSL Technologies, and operated alone for a few years.

SAR: How did everyone come together at Gemtech?

Phil: After I moved to Boise, I advertised in Machine Gun News that the original Automatic Weapons Company was alive and well in Boise, and then in another ad it said I’d be willing to do sound measurements for the industry. One day, I got a call from a competitor, and a few weeks later, he came over for the weekend to do some sound measurements, proving the ear is basically not a very good sound tool. I helped him fine tune a number of his designs and we decided to start working together.

SAR: Where did the name Gemini come from?

Phil: Well, that’s the corporation’s name, Gemini Technologies Incorporated. The name came from the astrological in that the corporation was formed when the sun was in Gemini. We had just decided to join up formally as a corporation. Soon thereafter, we had been talking with Greg off and on, and we subcontracted Greg to make some parts for us.

SAR: Greg, tell me how you came into Gemtech.

Greg: Al Paulson encouraged me to contact Gemtech and talk to them. At the time, I thought of them as competition, but Al said that he thought Gemtech could use my patent lawyer for a new product they had developed. I called and talked to them, and we started sharing ideas on suppressor designs. At the time, I was a member of the ADPA, and found out about the upcoming symposium at Fort Lewis, WA., and suggested that they attend. Phil sent me some drawings for some baffles for the Vortex 2, which he wanted priced. The baffles were to be made out of stainless. I told Phil that this was a lot of extra machining and weight for baffles. I suggested that they make the baffles out of aluminum, and that I would beef them up as needed during machining. They asked for a price for both the stainless and the aluminum, and based on this, they asked for the aluminum baffles. I manufactured the baffles for them, sent them over, and they were very happy with them. It wasn’t long after this that I joined Gemtech.

SAR: Richard, how did you become part of Gemtech?

Richard: My initial introduction to Gemtech was in 1994, when I first began buying their products. I was establishing my Class 3 business in northeast Pennsylvania. Gemtech became my main line of suppressors for sale to both law enforcement and individuals. Our first face to face meeting was at a previous NDIA show at Picatinny Arsenal. It was apparent then that we had similar goals and interests, but I was able to bring a different dimension to the business. As a corporation, we have a design base in research and development, with a long lineage, which Phil possesses. We are at the cutting edge of manufacturing expertise with Greg’s facilities and expertise. The missing component was marketing, which I feel I bring to Gemtech. I can view Gemtech objectively as a previous customer with a separate Class 3 business, with feedback from my customers. My corporate background in banking, law, and risk management adds to the overall success of Gemtech.

SAR: Phil, how did Richard’s role expand at Gemtech?

Phil: After several directors had resigned, we needed to replenish the board of directors. We gave serious consideration to a number of individuals, but Richard clearly stood out as dedicated to the company and our goals, and was extremely qualified. We asked him if he would be willing to serve on our board of directors and become an officer in the corporation. This fall, we had a meeting of the stockholders, and Richard was elected unanimously.

SAR: Tell me about your products, including the Slimline and the Raptor.

Phil: The Slimline originated with Greg and used the helical baffles from his patent. We found out through testing that in rim fire the helical baffles didn’t work as well as they should have in theory. We went to a more conventional style of baffle first, and then to an unconventional baffle design. The Slimline is currently 100% aluminum, and the Vortex 2 has a stainless exterior, and an aluminum interior. The advantage of the Slimline is that you can sight over it on a pistol such as the Walther TPH. Both cans are the same length, but the Vortex 2 is quieter due to its greater diameter and volume. On a rifle, either can will work equally well. On a pistol, the Vortex 2 works better. Both cans are designed to work dry, but a little water never hurts anything. The Slimline will retain water better than the Vortex 2.

Greg: After we came up with the new variation of the Vortex 2, I designed a quicksnap coupling for the MK-9K suppressor. I wanted to get the size for the suppressor down, so I redesigned the coupling to an inch and 3/8 size, and worked on a baffle stack for the Raptor. I put it together and sent it to Phil for testing. The sound reduction came out so well, that we decided not to change anything, and the Raptor was born.

SAR: Tell me about the M4-96D suppressor for the M16.

Greg: During the time we developed the Raptor, we heard that a solicitation was coming out for the M4. I began working on the M4 in an inch and 5/8ths size, without knowing the envelope they wanted. I built up a detachable suppressor using a special flash hider with lugs, and sent it out to Phil for testing. We found out that this system was very strong and successful. Once the solicitation came out, we had 5 weeks to get it on their desk. I put the product together, and Phil did the testing. Phil found out through testing that if we modified the baffle stack, we had better reduction. Once we had this figured out, we built the units, and Phil tested them thoroughly. At the end of the 5 weeks, we had the product and pricing on their desk. The M4-96D came out of a 5-week project, from start to finish.

SAR: Who does the majority of manufacturing on components?

Greg: We both do one-off stuff for testing, but once the unit is finalized, I take care of the production, holding the aerospace tolerances and finishes. When the components are done, I send them to Boise for assembly.

SAR: Are all the units test fired?

Greg: No, all the units are built to specifications. You can take any single part in the suppressor, and there would be no more than 1/1000th inch difference in the entire lot.

SAR: What are your best selling items right now?

Phil: The two best selling items right now include the M4-96D, which has always been popular due to its phenomenal accuracy and suppression in a small package, and has become our best selling suppressor of all time. We have both military and export contracts for it. The second best seller is the Raptor 9MM for the HK MP5, which is becoming a standard law enforcement item for many agencies.
After the M4-96D came out, we discontinued the .223 version of the Spec Op, which was an outgrowth of the M22 in bullpup sizing. The earlier version was a little more efficient, but it was twice the size and weight. The new .308 can, the TPRS, was mainly developed by Greg. This system utilizes a frequency multiplication unit, which shifts the frequency to a higher range. It’s at the higher range where hearing loss typically occurs, and the higher frequencies are attenuated faster in air than the lower frequencies, so they don’t carry as far. The Aurora was designed as a specialty disposable suppressor for use as a pilot bailout weapon with a 9MM pistol. Our integrally suppressed Rugers use the Vortex 2 baffle stack.

SAR: What are some of your newest products?

Phil: One of the newest items is the Outback, which is a screw-on .22 caliber muzzle suppressor. It was designed for the mass market and was based on proven technology. Large manufacturing runs allow us to offer this high quality suppressor at a very affordable price. It retails, with the tax stamp, for just over $500. The Outback is perfect for the backpacker in the woods who doesn’t want to carry an M16, but does carry a .22 pistol. This is not so much for protection, but for small game for the pot.

Richard: Another new product is the Viper. It is a very high quality M11/9 suppressor. The M11/9 machine gun is the most affordable mass produced weapon of its type in the market place. Previous suppressors produced by other manufacturers have a tendency to unscrew during firing, due to the large thread pitch on the barrel. Our customers have been asking us to produce a suppressor, which overcomes this problem.

Phil: We had been reluctant, initially, because in order to maintain alignment you had to hold the suppressor screwed on tightly to the coarse threads. Greg designed a mounting system that requires no modification to the weapon, but mounts to the existing threads and will not unscrew. This new mounting system gave us the opportunity to build a quality suppressor with sound reduction in the low to mid 30’s. It is two-thirds the size of the original Sionics, retains the original profile and will not unscrew.

SAR: Tell me about the new Mossad.

Phil: The Mossad is similar to the Viper, in that it is designed as a high efficiency suppressor for simple mounting on the Uzi without having to modify the weapon. Previously, we had modified Uzi barrels by adding a three lug adapter so that Raptor owners could use the suppressor on the Uzi or the MP5. The Mossad is dedicated to the Uzi and replaces the barrel retaining nut. You use the same original barrel, remove the barrel retaining nut, and screw the Mossad on in its place.

Richard: The Mossad also fits well with our international marketing. After the MP5, the Uzi is the second most common machine gun in many inventories. There is a definite need for a lightweight, compact suppressor for the Uzi.

Phil: The Mossad weighs about 12 ounces and the Mini-Mossad weighs 10 and 1/2 ounces. The Mini-Mossad has been designed for the Mini-Uzi, and offers about 33 Db reduction.

SAR: Which units are you going to demonstrate here at the symposium?

Greg: The SOS 45, the FN P90, the Mossad on the Uzi, the Raptor 40, the Raptor 9, the Predator and the M4-96D on the M16, and the Vortex 9.

SAR: What’s in the future for Gemtech?

Greg: We have several ideas on the drawing board and don’t want to go into great detail at this time. One item we have developed is the Hushpuppy/ Vortex combination. The original wipe pack is removed and the Vortex replacement is screwed in to bring it up to the technology of the Vortex 9. This system can be used either wet or dry, with about 32 DB reduction dry and 38 DB wet. There are a lot of Hushpuppies out there in the military, where you have to worry about the wipes being shot out or affecting the accuracy. With the Vortex, you’ll have equivalent reduction with no wipe replacement, and service for years.

Phil: Right now, we’re working on major production to fill a lot of military and export contracts.

Richard: The demand for the M4-96D’s and the Raptors will keep Gemtech busy well into 2000. The FN P90 firearm is beginning to sell throughout the marketplace, and the suppressor we designed for the weapon at the request of FN should sell well also. Our ability to service our dealers properly is a top priority at Gemtech. We will be looking to recruit large volume dealers, and reevaluate the dealers we currently have. We want to have a great marriage between our dealers and Gemtech.

Phil: We had experimented for a while with the concept of exclusive territories for our dealers. We determined that this does not work well. A lot of police agencies require multiple bids and when you have an exclusive territory, other bidders cannot sell into the territory. We found this to be a restraint of trade, and our business is to manufacture suppressors, not to regulate trade.

Richard: Our view now is to let the chips fall where they may, relying on our dealers in the marketplace. This also benefits the customer and end user by allowing the market to set its own pace for demand. This is the fairest way for us to develop our dealer network.

SAR: Thank you for sitting down and sharing your thoughts with us.

Gemtech: You’re welcome!

Gemtech
P. O. Box 3538
Boise, ID 83703-3538
Phone: (208)939-7222

In Memoriam

John Ross Weaver, Jr.
June 29, 1958 – October 23,1999

Just as this article was going to press, John Weaver was involved in a traffic accident which led to his untimely death. John is survived by his wife Debbie and sons Daniel, 9, and John, 13. Business associates will continue to operate JRW Sports to take care of pending transfers, repairs, and product orders. Contact the shop if you have any questions. Cards and donations should be sent to the family c/o JRW Sports, 1401 South Ridgewood #4, Edgewater, FL 32132

John Weaver is one of a handful of Class II manufacturers who can do it all. While many manufacturers concentrate their efforts in one or two areas, John is able to provide goods and services to the Class III world in almost every facet imaginable. JRW Sports, based in Edgewater, Florida, manufactures silencers, machineguns, full auto conversions, Glock stocks, M60 parts, H&K modifications, caliber conversions, magazine upgrades, firearm refinishing, custom knives, and gunsmithing.

John bought his first two machineguns in 1988, which included an M16 and an HK auto sear. The following year, he obtained his first Federal Firearms License, and in 1991 started paying his Special Occupational Tax as a manufacturer. The first items he manufactured were AOW shotguns, post sample machineguns, and then suppressors. John had limited experience with suppressors until he obtained some for customers, as well as for himself, through trades. Other trades netted Sten tubes and an M60, which gave John a chance to work on his welding skills. In the beginning, John’s Class II manufacturing was done on a part time basis, but as customer requests kept building, the business quickly turned full time in 1995.

Different suppressor details and features were studied and modified by John in his early efforts, until he arrived at a totally unique and efficient baffle design. He now has a full line of effective silencers from .22 to .50 caliber. In 1992, the semi auto M60 became a serious project, as well as HK modifications. HK work includes installing barrels, flapper magazine release levers, cutting down full size rifles to the shorter 51’s and 53’s, refinishing and building the integrally suppressed SD’s. In 1995, John sold the bulk of his transferable machineguns and put the money into manufacturing equipment. He started manufacturing his own M60 components because of the limited availability of good parts in the marketplace. A year later, he started manufacturing folding Glock stocks, and designed a custom knife. Until 1998, much of the machining work was subcontracted out to others. John then obtained Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC) equipment, including a lathe and mill, and now manufactures all of his own parts, with the help of three additional machinists. CNC manufactured parts include the TEK 10/22 full auto parts, Colt magazine followers, magazine well blocks, and barrels (all of which are manufactured with permission), M60 rails and trunions, and HK MP5 standard and SD barrels.

Last year, John got serious with the .223 caliber conversion for the M60 machinegun. He now manufactures complete conversion kits, which are available through Vic’s Gun Corporation in Missouri. The manufacturing business is now at the point where John can concentrate on research and development and turn over mass production to his machine shop employees.

One of John’s latest efforts has been to open up an outside firing range on 100 acres of land close to Orlando. The range includes a 1000-yard rifle range, as well as 100 and 200 yard ranges for machinegun rentals. Rental guns include beltfeds, such as the standard M60, .223 M60, RPD, M1919, PKM, Minigun and MG74, and other machineguns including HK MP5, HK 53, G3, Colt M16 in 9mm and .223, Swedish K, Glock 18, Greasegun, Scorpion, and a select fire Remington 1100 shotgun. Other plans for the range include high explosive and pyrotechnic demonstrations in the future. Scott Quinn is a partner in the outside range. Scott owns Mid-Florida Gun Sales, an indoor shooting range and gun shop including Class III firearms.

When you ask John why he started building his own M60’s, he will tell you that it’s because many of the M60’s built by others have quality, dimensional, and functioning problems. He started by first building parts for repairs and for sale to others. After seeing so many poorly made M60’s, John decided to start building entire guns using the parts he was now manufacturing. John gained quite a reputation as a manufacturer of quality parts and firearms. JRW Sports likely manufactured many of the parts and guns you see for sale by others. The M60 is a very reliable and simple gun to work on. Most of the problems with the M60 stem from soft or out of tolerance parts.

When John first got into manufacturing M60 parts, he was on a limited budget. He took the money he had available and contracted out the parts. His plan was to complete one item, sell them, and roll the money back into the business to continue manufacturing more of the needed parts. The first item manufactured were M60 trunions. The money from the sale of the trunions was then used for the manufacturing of M60 rails. Following the M60 rails were the semi-auto M60 rails, which then allowed for the manufacturing of the numerous small components required to assemble complete weapons. Within a year from the start of this process, JRW Sports was manufacturing complete semi-auto M60 receivers for sale. Production of complete receivers started at about 20 per year, with many more do-it-yourself kits sold to others. An even greater number of post sample receivers and full-auto M60 machineguns sold to law enforcement and for export have been made in comparison to the semi-auto M60’s.

The .223 caliber conversion kit for the M60 is finally in production. John has been working on this for a couple of years and has delivered the first units to the marketplace. The kit includes a brand new barrel assembly in either the E-3 Shorty or standard length. Right now, the customer must supply the gas system for the E-3 Shorty, but JRW Sports will be manufacturing their own gas system in the near future. The new variable gas system will eliminate the problem-prone operating rod tube. Other kit components include the bolt assembly, feed tray, and top cover parts. Customers who supply bolts, feed trays, and top covers for the conversion receive a discount. John’s test gun has been shot so much that there’s no rifling left in the barrel, the bolt is chipped, and the gun still runs flawlessly. This gun is used to give demonstrations with 300-400 round belts typically fired, but has also been used with up to 800 rounds fired in a single demonstration. The gun will get so hot that you are unable to hold on to it. This system uses the standard Minimi links and the smaller caliber reduces wear to components of the gun.

The lightweight .308 M60 is currently being developed by JRW Sports. This system will use composite parts for the top cover, receiver, and barrel with the target goal of 14 pounds for the complete system. The .308 round has a lower cyclic rate and superior ballistics in combat as compared to the .223 Minimi. If John is successful in reaching this weight goal with parts that are durable and reliable, this could be a rebirth for the venerable M60 machinegun.

Another manufacturing project is the Colt 9mm magazine well adaptor. These adaptors allow .223 weapons to be converted to 9mm without permanent modifications to the host weapons. The blocks are held in place with setscrews rather than drilled roll pins as found on factory Colt 9mm firearms. You simply install these, put on your 9mm upper, and you’re ready to shoot. John is now working on a one-piece design, rather than a two-piece design, for even better alignment in the weapon.

The folding Glock stock has been a very successful project for JRW Sports. John got the original idea from a similar stock made by Rikert, which was owned by Charlie Allen of University Gun. These stocks were crudely made, and John knew he could take this basic idea and improve it using CNC manufacturing. Charlie brought the stock over to John’s shop where it was examined and improvements made. Sixty units were produced in about three weeks. During the same time, two additional improvements were made, including the lock mechanism. Then an additional 750 units were manufactured in two different production runs. Enough effort was put into this stock that it was patented with eleven separate claims. Interest in the stocks has been as great in Europe as it has been here in the United States. John furnished some of the stocks to the GSG-9 German Special Forces and Austrian Army personnel at a recent SWAT Round Up in Orlando, as well as to an FBI field team. The success of the stock has mainly been attributed to word of mouth and some limited advertising. Adaptors are available so that it will fit on most sizes of Glocks, including the 26, 19, and 17 models.

John started working with Joe Gaddini on 9mm suppressor designs a couple of years ago and together their work has become state of the art. They now offer a Colt 9mm SD ported, integral suppressor, as well as an HK MP5SD suppressor using John’s CNC manufactured baffles and barrels. The newest prototype can is amazingly quiet. John’s .308 suppressor is in the hands of the Navy Seals for evaluation. A new slip-on suppressor for the AR-10T has been developed, as well as a .50 caliber suppressor, which was recently demonstrated at Knob Creek, Kentucky. The TEK 10/22 full-auto conversion parts are now in production, with improvements over the original design. The new parts are more reliable with better springs. A new trigger is being developed, which would retrofit to any full-auto 10/22, where the safety would become the selector. John’s goal is to offer the best quality products with reliability, durability, and accuracy.

There are currently two facilities in use by JRW Sports. One shop is set up for manual operations and assembly, and includes lathes, a Bridgeport mill, Parkerizing center, test-firing apparatus with bullet trap, bead blaster, and welding equipment. The office and display area are in the front of this facility, as well. A separate 1600 square foot facility is located a few blocks away in an industrial park. This is where the CNC Daewoo Puma extended bed lathe and FADAL 10,000-RPM mill are set up for quantity production runs.

Future plans include consolidating these two indoor facilities with the outdoor range, which is located north of Titusville, just off Interstate 95, approximately one hour east of Orlando. This consolidation will reduce travel time and allow for machinegun rentals, sales, manufacturing, and repairs to all be in one location. John is obtaining state and federal explosives licenses to allow customers to handle and set up various explosives in a safe environment on a separate portion of the range. The range facilities will be open to law enforcement for training and to the general public. With such a convenient location, a family could enjoy the beach only a mile away, shoot some machineguns or detonate explosives, and go to Disney World all in the same day.

JRW Sports
1401 South Ridgewood, #4
Edgewater, Florida 32132
Phone: (904) 423-9914

Mid-Florida Gun Sales and Range
2911 West 39th Street, #800
Orlando, Florida 32839
Phone: (407) 428-6225

Vic’s Gun Corporation
P.O. Box 17
Ellsberry, MO 63343
Phone: (573) 898-3132

SAR: John, how did you get interested in machine guns and silencers ?

John: I’ve always been involved in firearms since my teenage days. Someone in the ‘70’s showed me a Shotgun News. I then became aware of class III firearms. I began buying machine guns and suppressors as an individual, became a Class III dealer for a few years, and eventually a Class II manufacturer. My family had been in the wholesale/retail business for years in Jacksonville, AR near the Little Rock Air Force Base. The personnel at the military installation became my initial customer base. Since we already had machine shop capabilities at our Jacksonville Main Street location, the manufacturing of Title II weapons was a good fit with existing resources, skills, and interests.

SAR: How did you get into manufacturing?

John: When I was a class III dealer, I was buying suppressors and converted machine guns from several Class II manufacturers. The quality was just not what I wanted or expected. Many of the suppressors available at that point in time could not be readily disassembled for cleaning, internal parts were crude, others just did not reduce the sound level enough to justify a $200 federal tax (even if the suppressor was free). Many of the manufacturers producing integral suppressors available for firearms such as the Ruger 10/22 had front sights that were mounted crooked, some would not even cycle without malfunctions and others had accuracy problems. I really hated selling products that I would not want to own myself. These problems forced me into the Class II manufacturing business. I simply needed a source of products that were consistently of high quality. My concern when I first went into this business was that I would not be able to sell my products and I’d end up having to keep everything I made. Therefore, I built everything to my level of expectation to where I was pleased with it, so that even if it didn’t sell, I would be happy to keep it. I found that my standards appeared to meet or exceed most expectations of others. To this day I’m still not a high volume manufacturer, and I don’t want to be. The bottle neck in my business is that I put everything together and test fire it myself. I have two licensed shops were I manufacture parts but can unfortunately produce the parts faster than I can put them together. I have several people that work with me but I do the final assembly and fitting myself. That way I know exactly what the quality is of my products , so I very rarely have anybody call with a problem. That is really the key to customer retention and business longevity.

SAR: How much advanced notice did you have that the machine gun law in 1986 was changing?

John: I remember sitting at my kitchen table in March of 1986 reading the newspaper, and noticing there were more and more articles about the McClure-Volkmer Bill, which had just passed the House. That’s when I first started calling the NFA Branch. Gary Schaible, the acting branch director, was very helpful. During one particular call to NFA it finally hit me that the bill was absolutely going to pass both the House and Senate and be signed by the President. I had a limited window of opportunity so I started working nearly 24 hours a day. ATF was coming out every so often, and they were laughing, as they could see the stress I and others in the country were under trying to get parts registered. The local BATF inspectors were acting like the “Bill” would probably not pass the Senate or be signed by the President, so why get in a big hurry? Fortunately, anything that I did build would be something that I could still use even if it had not become Public Law 99-308. I remember driving into work in the mornings, and being in a daze due to the lack of sleep because I just couldn’t let up.

It was really frightening to see what was happening to this industry and why it’s dangerous from a financial perspective to be in the class III firearms business full time. You can pick up the newspaper some morning and read that you’re literally out of business! Laws can change that quickly. President Reagan was in Japan when the “Bill” passed the Senate, and on his return, thirteen days later, he signed the bill into law. My approach to registering firearms and parts during that time was a little different than most Class II’s. I did not want any screw-ups over what could be registered and what could not. I had the local BATF inspector come out to the shop almost every day to inspect and verify what I was sending in on Form 2’s to NFA in Washington. I obtained the local agent’s signature on each Form 2 and let the local BATF office send them in for me. This prevented me from having many of the verification problems that many class II’s had after the ban.

What is interesting, was that it was generally believed in the industry that the actual day the President signed the act into law, this would be the last day to make and register machine guns. Not many people are aware of this but the Bill was signed on May 20th at about 3:30 pm CST, but it became effective on the previous day, May 19th. The whole day of the 20th, you couldn’t count. I had sent in piles of Form 2s every day, including the 20th. The local ATF agent was coming and checking on me regularly, and my Main Street shop was like a fast food place during lunch with people sometimes lining up out onto the sidewalk wanting me to register guns and parts. I had firearms and parts all over the floors on blankets so ATF could inspect them. I remember during one inspection we were looking at M-2 trigger groups and the inspector required that I have all the parts in order to register the kits. I remember looking at one trigger group, which I had picked up to call out the serial number to the BATF inspector. The inspector said it was missing the selector spring. I told him it was still a machine gun even without the spring, but he told me it had to have all the parts or I could not count it. So I said, “Ok, let me get this straight. If I leave this part off the M-2 trigger group then it’s not a machine gun so I can sell it to any man, woman, or child that walks in my shop, right ?” The ATF agent looked at me, smiled, and said, “Ok, we’ll count it”.

ATF agents made decisions inconsistently all over the country at that time. An inspector in one state would allow a class II to register some parts and in another state the same parts would not be considered a machine gun by the inspector so they could not be registered. Example, for 10 years, I had been putting the serial number on the M-2 trigger housing when I converted an M-1 carbine, but when ATF came out to inspect me in 1986, they disallowed all of my M-2 trigger groups the first day because I had the serial numbers on the housing rather than on some other parts. They stated that I had to have the number on one of the parts that was different than the semi auto parts. Of course the full auto housing has a machine cut in it that is different than the semi-auto but that did not matter. I had to re-serial number several hundred the next day, but they came back out again and approved them.

SAR: Would you give me a break down on the number and types of machine guns that you have registered?

John: In 1986, I registered a couple thousand different types of full auto sears, UZI bolts, M-2 carbine parts, Sten receiver tubes, a few Browning side plates, etc. I also rewelded a number of military M-16 receivers that had been destroyed by the DOD. I produced these in various brands such as Colt, H&R, and General Motors Hydramatic Division, etc. We had gotten so experienced in cosmetic welding of these receivers that it eventually caused a problem during the intense ATF inspection period before the May 19th 1986 cut off. ATF kept asking me where these M-16 receivers came from since there were absolutely no cosmetic imperfections that indicated they were rewelds. Fortunately, I remembered that I had written an article that was published in the now defunct FirePower Magazine on the rewelding process with pictures. This was the only way I could convince them that these were rewelds rather than new M-16 receivers. It worked and I had no problems with them in the future.

SAR: Tell me about how the select fire Ruger 10/22 came about?

John: The Atchission MKI and MKII .22 subcaliber kits for the AR-15/M-16 are responsible for propelling me into designing a full auto conversion for the Ruger 10/22. I got involved with the Atchisson .22 subcaliber units when they were owned and produced by Brocal International out of Ohio. This was quite awhile before Jonathan Ciener produced the MKIII version of the Atchission.. I started redesigning the Atchisson Mark II and eventually wrote a manual to allow shooters of the Atchisson unit to improve its reliability. I ended up producing precision match grade parts for the Atchisson MKII for few years, but I was still dissatisfied with all the work it took to make them function properly. It simple made more sense for me to focus on the conversion of a rifle that was already a .22 rimfire using what I had learned from my mechanical success with the Atchisson.

I began examining a variety of .22 cal semi-auto rifles looking for a suitable rifle to convert to full auto. I worked on a conversion for the Marlin Glenfield, the Remington Speed Master and the Ruger 10/22. The Marlin was just too delicate, the Remington had a very light bolt and was not suitable. The Ruger 10/22 by far was the obvious choice. It was not delicate, it had massive parts in its trigger group and had a heavy bolt. I spent a year and a half on designing the closed bolt conversion for it and built numerous prototypes. I shot something like 300,000 .22 cal cartridges during that year and a half for testing and eventually settled on a particular design. I started officially offering the conversion for sale in about 1985. Over the years, I’ve made numerous modifications to the conversions, and offered them with and without the suppressors. I continue to convert 10/22’s as Post-86 samples for law enforcement demonstrations and sales to dealers, and also release a few pre-’86 conversions each year. Transferable machine guns are simply investments like stocks and other commodities.

Of interest, is that a number of years ago I got a letter from the legal department at Ruger letting me know that they had been informed that I was doing a full auto conversion on the 10/22. The letter stated that the 10/22 carbine was not intended to be used as a machine gun and besides I might be doing something illegal. It was a pretty humorous letter in that Ruger’s attorney seemed to imply that Sturm, Ruger and Co. just woke up and discovered that full auto conversions on semi auto firearms were being done in this country. The letter also implied that Ruger should have control over how their 10/22 and other firearms were used by other manufacturers, dealers and individuals.

There was another company called TEK that did a few closed bolt conversions using a totally different design than mine. The TEK conversion was pretty light duty and most of them would eventually cease to function after extended use. I’ve converted most of the existing TEK conversion in the country over to my design at this point.

SAR: What are the differences on your 10/22’s?

John: These several Rugers I have displayed are my prototype shop guns. One version has a larger diameter suppressor and a match grade barrel in it. Another version is a shorter suppressor which uses the large diameter tube. One has an infrared Sure Fire light on top, and an infrared laser that I made and mounted on the bottom. I use this set up for night hunting with night vision. It is suppressed and can be fired from the waist without needing to look through sights. I recently shot a 60 pound beaver using this set-up, authorized by a state issued night hunting permit, of course. Others displayed indicate the various levels of development of the full auto conversion and suppressor design in the Ruger 10/22.

SAR: How did you register the 10/22’s?

John: I started with registered trigger groups, but I actually converted more Rugers with registered sears than any other way. I remember one man from Tennessee who was a TV repairman, who had registered a full auto 10/22, which was converted electronically. It had a little motor and a battery, and he built it all in the trigger group. When he pulled the switch, the motor would turn and shoot full auto. I converted it to a mechanical mechanism for him since his batteries would run down often.

SAR: With all the Ruger 10/22 suppressors being made by other manufactures what sets yours apart from them?

John: I think a number of manufacturing aspects may be unique to my products. First, the Ruger 10/22 suppressors I manufacture have 1’’ OD seamless stainless tubing that is the highest quality that money can buy. By that, I mean I have my shop foreman, Mike Sullivan, require that the tubing manufacturer and shipper handle the tubing in a special manner to assure straightness and roundness. Most tubing manufacturers ship tubing in 20 ft or longer sticks to their distributors. A 20 ft stick of anything is not likely to stay perfectly straight very long during shipping. Then, when the tubing distributor gets it they fork lift it around the warehouse to stack it. By the time most people buy it is not perfectly straight anymore. On a short suppressor tube of 6 to 8 inches this is not a big deal, but on an 18’ or longer suppressor tube it is extremely important that the tube is straight. Why? Because if the tube is just a few thousandth of an inch off from being straight, then the internal parts including the barrel are curved to fit the contour of the tube. This is one reason that lots of suppressed rifles on the market require you to adjust the rear sight far to the right, left, up or down to sight the rifle in. A few thousands off due to the suppressor tube may translate into inches off at 50 or 100 yards. Next, I have to make sure the bore in the barrel is straight. Bores in rifles and shotguns are usually not perfectly straight, especially in low priced firearms.

SAR: How can you tell if the bore is not straight?

John: The straightness or trueness of the outside of a barrel has absolutely nothing to do with how straight the bore may be. If you take just about any barrel and start cutting it off one inch at a time you will notice by using a micrometer on the wall thickness that the bore is not centered in the barrel through out its full length. Even Colt M-16 rifles can have the bore off center at the muzzle by .020”. This is very important if you are screwing on a suppressor with close tolerances since the bullet may hit the baffles or other structures in the suppressor. I machine every barrel based on the location of its bore not the outside of the barrel. Although I know that the bore is centered at the muzzle end of my machined barrel, I don’t know if the bore is off center in closer to the chamber end. After placing them in a perfectly straight tube, I then test fire them for center shooting accuracy. A barrel may be straight on the outside but have an arch to the bore inside. This will show up when firing because the rear sight would have to be adjusted to an extreme to correct for this. If this occurs I either don’t use the barrel or I shadow box arch or bend the barrel to straighten the bore. The end result is that the bullet will exit the suppressor straight and not at an angle. This allows me to use extremely precise baffles and other parts. Baffles are machined from solid bars of aircraft T6 aluminum on a computerized lathe for precise consistency.

SAR: Any other notable differences?

John: Possibly, the processes of drilling and deburring the gas holes in the barrels may be unique too. I use a new drill bit on every barrel I drill. I want a hole that has the least amount of metal distortion before deburring the inside of the barrel. Since holes are drilled in the barrel for some types of suppressors, the bullet will be cut and deformed as it passes by the port holes if any burrs or edges exist. I have a set of broaches in .00025” increments that I pass down the bore. These broaches have blades on them that trim the burrs off of each hole inside the barrel. Deburring the bottom of the grooves in the rifling is next. I have a specially made spring loaded tool that I insert through each port hole and it expands to let me countersink each hole from the inside. I then lightly polish the bore of each barrel to provide a glass like finish. I line my suppressor tubes with a thin wall .020” stainless tube cut into 1 1/2” lengths. This produces a suppressor cartridge that when removed from the suppressor contains all the powder residue leaving the suppressor tube clean internally. Crowning of a barrel is also a science. I have experimented with all types of crown angles and crowning tool geometry. After crowning I examine every muzzle under high magnification to assure it was cut correctly. Eventually the suppressor is assembled and test fired for accuracy and sights adjusted. It is a long process but has worked well for me. This last year I’ve added the option of a match grade target barrel installed in the suppressor for the more demanding shooter or hunter.

SAR: Have you suppressed any shotguns?

John: Yes, one prototype I designed and made back in August of ’86. I used an old Stevens Model 58 .410 bolt action and made the 12” suppressor offset so the top of the suppressor tube is flush with the receiver. I mounted the action in a Butler Creek Ruger 10/22 folding stock, installed a screw-in full choke tube, and added adjustable sights. It will shoot 3” magnum shells and sounds like a suppressed .22 rifle. (see photo page 32) I’ve hunted with it for a number of years shooting small game. It’s just kind of an all around good little game getter.
The second one is a prototype of a pump suppressed shotgun using a 20 gauge Mossberg Model 500. It has an intricate pump action that really took too much labor to ever put it into production. It looks like something you would see in one of “Arnold’s” movies. A semi-auto shotgun with a box magazine would be a good candidate for an integral suppressor but it would have to be recoil operated rather than a gas operated.

SAR: Tell me about your spear gun.

John: That’s a prototype spear gun I built from a stainless steel .410 Snake Charmer. At one point in time I did a lot of scuba diving and spear fishing, and rubber band guns were just inadequate, as well as, most pneumatic and hydro-pneumatic guns. I redesigned a stainless steel Snake Charmer .410 by placing an M-16 pistol grip on it along with a wrist support, built up the hammer weight so it would have enough momentum under water to fire the cartridge, converted the chamber from .410 gauge to .22 rimfire, and installed a large adjustable ring sight. I used a stainless spear shaft and manufactured a Teflon gas seal at the rear of the shaft.

When you’re scuba diving, you want your line to be coiled up, but when you shoot, you want it to release. This is just one of the characteristics that would define a well designed spear gun. So I made a stainless steel gas operated release mechanism for the line. I use .22 cal. Remington waterproof power cartridges to propel the spear shaft. Remington makes the power cartridges in twelve different power levels. The power produced by the cartridge propels the spear at speeds and distances unmatched by any spear gun I’ve ever seen. The spear will shoot hard and straight to 50 ft before it starts to drop. The adjustable sight is easy to use and allows you to sight-in the gun using an underwater target. The grouping is about 1” at 30 ft. I’ve shot through several fish at once on more than one occasion. You can control the power easily by using different power cartridges. After each shot, you break the action open and it ejects the .22 cartridge automatically. When you shove the shaft down the barrel, it pushes all the trash and residue out the barrel and chamber for the next shot. It makes a dull thud sound when fired and produces no noticeable gas bubble coming from the barrel. I have plans at some point in time to produce these with an adjustable power switch that will allow you to simply select the power level and penetration just a second before shooting. I’ve worked an arrangement with BATF to allow these to be produced without being considered a firearm. This would allow sales directly to dive shop and individuals without a FFL.

In keeping with the idea, I’ve also prototyped a power head for bowfishing. The light weight stainless power head allows you to shoot a .22 magnum cartridge or Remington power cartridge on the tip of your bowfishing arrow. I use the 22 cal. magnum stud driving power blank so it will not be considered a firearm. The stud driving blank will blow a 2 x 4 oak board into splinters and creates a tremendously deep and fatal wound on fish or other game.

SAR: Have you produced many AOW’s?

John: Yes, I have machined Ruger 10/22 barrels into .22 long rifle pen guns. (See photo page 32) At one time I produced a few of these and threaded some of them 1/2”-28 tpi to allow the attachment of a small suppressor made inside the shell of a Magic Marker felt pen. I made a thread protector that looked just like a marker tip and would actually write. You had a pen and a Magic Marker set which screwed together to make a firing combination. The real obstacle in producing and marketing pen guns and some other AOW firearms is the liability exposure since they don’t look like firearm. I’m also prototyping a video camcorder that is actually a very accurate .22 cal. match AOW with suppressor aimed by a laser. The cosmetics are perfect on the camera and the original operational L.E.D.s still light up and releases the safety mechanism when the camera is turned on.

SAR: How about AOW shotguns?

John: Yes, I was able to get a number of double barrel receivers when Iver Johnson went out of business, back in the 1980’s before they become AMAC. Iver Johnson had made about 30 brands of shotguns from the turn of the century. I produced these in .410 , 20 ga. and 12 ga. These were the first double AOWs made in the U.S. since 1934 when Ithaca ceased production of the “Auto Burglar” AOW.

SAR: How many did you build?

John: I only built four of the .410’s, which were more of a novelty. I built about 200 of the 20 gauge and a few 12 gauge. I still have some receivers and may go back at a later date and make some more. I also have several hundred single shot receivers too but there is simply not much of a market in single shot AOW shotguns pistols. I’m currently building AOW Mossberg pumps with 7.5” barrels and 17” overall.

SAR: Have you done any weapons with lasers?

John: Yes, I made a prototype high powered helium neon laser rifle many years ago, before lasers became common and power outputs became restricted by the Bureau of Radiation Health. (see photo on page 33) This is a very high powered laser that I’ve mounted with a scope. It will temporarily blind small game so well that you can just go pick them up. The stock has been hollowed out to hold rechargeable batteries, and it can also run off the cigarette lighter in a car. I’ve got some interesting stories I’ll tell you sometime about this rifle.
Later, I developed a laser module that fits onto the H&K Utility Light for the USP. It allows the use of the light or laser by itself or both the light and laser at the same time. I also made it with an infrared laser for use with night vision. This led to having to make an adapter to allow the mounting of the USP light onto the SOCOM MK23 pistol. None of these prototypes are yet in production.

SAR: Tell us about your mail order business.

John: My first mail order product was selling the book on how to make an Atchisson MKII function. Later, I started providing the Atchisson repair, and then slotting Uzi bolts back when you could sell them. I eventually needed a finish to put on stainless steel so I developed the finish I call Moly Resin from a molybdenum disulfide phenolic Resin. I produce the product now in ten colors and sell it to the SOCOM suppressor manufacturer, Knight Armament, the U.S. Military for refinishing their M-16’s, gun shops all over the country, as well as, in several in foreign countries. Now my business for all products lines is 90% mail order with the mix of 60% Class III and individuals, 38% law enforcement and 2% federal agencies with oddball special projects.

SAR: Tell me about the suppressed Colt 9MM.

John: The Colt Model 6450 9MM carbines was introduced by Colt in late 1985 or early 1986. So there weren’t many registered as machine guns before the May 19th cut-off. I had a large stock of AR-15 drop-in auto sears at that time and the Colt 9mm weapon converted very well. I looked at several other’s efforts in producing a suppressor under the rifle forearms. All of the ones I saw looked like the barrels were cut to 5” or so and then a suppressor tube place on the barrel with baffles. The AR-15 front sight was cut and welded to the tube or simply did not have a front sight. I felt that this design could be improved upon, so I built a two piece suppressor that couples together around the front sight, leaving the barrel the full 10 inches. I port the barrel so that high velocity bullets exit the suppressor 1050 feet per second, so it’s subsonic. It is equivalent in sound to an MP5 SD. You don’t have to worry about the front sight alignment or having some unattractive welding of the sight onto the tube. It is easy to clean, quiet, doesn’t affect accuracy, and allows the use of standard supersonic ammo,. Later on, I developed a mechanism for the AR-15 9MM magazine well blocks to prevent holes from being drilled to mount the blocks in the receiver. I designed a cam mechanism that I put into each 9MM block, which would expand and lock itself in. I also worked for several years on the four position M16 selector. Colt prototyped some of these back in the ‘60’s, but they didn’t go over then. There were several early attempts by other manufacturers to produce a four position kit for the M16, but none of these kits were of high quality or functioned well. I started building my own cams, including 2 shot, 3 shot and 6 shot cams, hammers and disconnectors. I no longer produce the burst kits but I did design and market a kit that will allow select fire with the SWD auto disconnector (lightning link).

SAR: Have you patented any of your products?

John: Yes, I patented certain features of the full auto conversion on the Ruger 10/22, and I have copyrights to some manuals that have to do with making some improvements on various guns and devices. I used to write a weekly column in the local paper, called Bullseye, for about a year. I’d write about everything from cleaning firearms to ballistics. I eventually wrote an article about Second Amendment rights and that was the end. The newspaper terminated my contract cold turkey. Apparently, the news media owners did not agree with our Bill of Rights. I’ve also written a number of articles for FirePower, Swat, Machine Gun News, etc.

SAR: Haven’t you been called to give expert testimony in firearms trials?

John: Yes, years ago I got involved in court cases for both sides. BATF has even flown me out of state to testify on their behalf, but primarily I testify for the defense. I do this not just for criminal cases, but also for liability suits and these have included everything from someone shooting themselves in the knee to the illegal manufacturing of MAC 10 submachine guns and selling them in Mexico. Of interest, is that most cases have to do with the possession of an unregistered machine gun. In almost every instance a crime of violence was not committed but rather a wife, ex-wife, girlfriend, etc. got angry and turned their husband or boyfriend in for possession. Generally speaking, BATF has not gotten very many convictions, at least in the cases I’ve been involved in. It is hard for them to convince a jury that a little bitsy piece of metal called a sear is really a machine gun. It is even hard for me to think it is too, especially considering some of the prices I see asked for them.

SAR: How did you get started in re-manufacturing M16 receivers?

John: Back in the early ‘80’s, Colt would sell a Class III dealer one “dealer’s sample” of each type of machine gun they produced. I was needing more Colt M16’s, and it was too slow getting them from Colt. You had to prove to Colt that you had sold one sample before they would send you another one. I started purchasing cut Colt M-16 receivers that the Department of Defense had destroyed. I made a special jig and fixture and welded them very carefully back together.

SAR: Tell me about the cosmetic work you do on machine guns.

John: During the learning process in rewelding M-16 receiver halves, I had to make certain cosmetic changes to the receivers as needed so they were not noticeable where they had been rewelded. I can weld over “AR-15” and re-engrave “M-16” or change the caliber from .223 to 9mm. I also weld the selector stops onto the AR-15 receiver and remark the safe, semi and auto positions. Just about any cosmetics can be accomplished except changing serial numbers or manufacturers. I don’t know anyone else in the industry that routinely is willing to weld on someone’s M-16 or AR-15 receiver. It is a very delicate process and there is absolutely no room for error. When I reconstruct other machine guns they are almost always made from steel and are much easier to weld.

SAR: Thanks for sitting down with us and sharing your experiences with our readers.

John: You are very welcome.

John Norrell Arms
2608 Grist Mill Road
Little Rock, AR 72227
E-mail: SMG1022@aol.com

The Air Force Armament Museum located adjacent to Eglin Air Force Base, near the city of Fort Walton Beach, Florida includes a 28,000 square foot building and five acres of outside displays. The museum was opened in November 1985, and it is the only museum in the world dedicated to the collection, preservation, and exhibition of Air Force Armament and associated platforms of delivery. The weapons vault houses a collection of small arms from the United States and throughout the world.

Four aircraft are exhibited inside the museum building including the P-51 Mustang and the P-47 Thunderbolt from World War II, and the F80C Shooting Star of the Korean War period. Each plane is armed with several .50 caliber aircraft machine guns. An F-105 Thunderchief from the Vietnam War era is also on display inside with its M61 20mm Vulcan and sixteen 750 pound bombs. Outside aircraft exhibits include the SR-71 Blackbird, Mig-21, A-10, B-17, B-25, T-33, F-4, F-15, F-16, F-84, F-86, F-89, F-100, F-101, F-104, F-111, RB-47, RF-4, O-2, C-131, B-52, and B-57.

Of special interest to SAR readers are the AC-47 and AC-130 aircraft on display at the museum. The AC-47 Spooky is the gunship version of the commercial DC-3 Gooney Bird (AC stands for Attack Cargo). The AC-47 is armed with three 7.62 mm Gatling guns which can fire sustained bursts on a target with reasonable accuracy, as the aircraft circles overhead. The AC-47 aircraft first arrived in South Vietnam in December 1964 and were assigned to the Air Commando Squadron. These aircraft were nicknamed Puff the Magic Dragon and many readers will remember a scene from the movie “The Green Berets” where an AC-47 was used in combat in Vietnam. The AC-47 Spookys were eventually supplemented and then replaced by the AC-130 Spectre. The AC-130 is the gunship version of the commercial C-130 and its increased armament includes two 40mm cannons, two 20mm Gatling guns, and sometimes a 105 mm cannon. Accuracy was improved on the AC-130 through the use of advanced infared detection equipment. These aircraft were used in Operations Just Cause and Desert Storm and are still in service today.

Armament on display in the museum include many bombs, missiles, and rockets such as the AMRAAM, Bomarc, Hound Dog, Mace, Falcon, Paveway, HARM, Genie, Sparrow, Sidewinder, JDAM, JSOW, 2.75 inch and 5 inch rockets, Combined Effects Munition, GBU-28 Bunker Buster and several submunition dispensers. Bombs range in size from two pounds to the 44,000 pound T-12 Bomb. Several gun pods are on display which contain gun systems like the Vulcan M61 20mm with 1200 rounds of ammuntion.

The weapons display vault is located inside the museum building and houses a wide variety of small arms. Several large glass cases and floor displays are in the vault. The first cases contain the Robert F. Sikes gun collection which is on loan from the family of the long-time Florida Congressman and museum sponsor. The Sikes Collection has over 180 pistols, including flintlock dueling pistols, western six-shooters, Civil War pistols and a wide variety of early military weapons. Many U.S. military small arms are in the next set of cases. These weapons include the M-1, M-2, and M-3 carbines, a Bushmaster 5.56 automatic pistol, Winchester M1897 and M1912 twelve gauge shotguns, Colt M-16, Armalite AR-18, Thompson 1928A1 Submachine gun, M60D, M3 Greasegun, XM-148 grenade launcher, Reising Model 50, M1918A2 BAR, M1 Garand, M14, and the Springfield Model 1903A1. Small arms in the foreign case include a Chinese Type 56 assault rifle and LMG, Czech VZ58P assault rifle, Czech ZB26 LMG, French MAS 38 and MAT 49. The next case contains a variety of small arms including a Japanese Type 89 7.7mm aircraft machinegun, German Maxim (Spandau) LMG 08/15, Lewis Model 1918 .30 caliber aircraft machinegun, Stoner 63 5.56mm fixed mount helicopter machinegun, Chinese Type 57 7.62 heavy machinegun, Marlin (Colt-Browning Potato Digger), M1914 machinegun, Vickers model 1918 aircraft machinegun, Austro-Hungarian Schwarzlose model 07/12 8mm aircraft machinegun, experimental USAF 7.62mm in-line minigun and a GE model MXU-470/A 7.62 aircraft minigun with ammunition module. Floor displays including a 40mm cannon from an AC-130 Gunship, several 20mm and 30mm Gatling guns, a rare .50 caliber minigun, a KPV heavy machinegun (which was Russian designed, Chinese made and captured in Iraq) and a Finnish Lahti 20mm cannon with sled mount.

The Air Force Armament Museum with its many exhibits is well worth a visit. Group tours can be arranged by calling (850) 882-4063. A theater with a 32 minute movie Arming the Air Force and a gift shop are also in the museum. The museum is open every day of the week from 9:30 A.M. to 4:30 P.M. central time and admission is free. The museum is located on Highway 85 near the west gate of Eglin Air Force Base, FL.

Harry Constance is a highly decorated U.S. Navy Seal, who served three combat tours in Vietnam between 1967 and 1970. He participated in 300 Special Ops behind enemy lines, as a member of the Seventh Platoon of SEAL Team Two. What follows is a story of one of those operations, the small arms used by Harry, and how a suppressed High Standard pistol helped save his life. Harry’s life story can be found in his excellent autobiography “Good To Go”, which is now in paperback.

Harry had many small arms available to him during his tours of duty in Vietnam. His primary issue weapon was a Stoner 63. He had several alternate weapons depending on the mission at hand. These weapons included the standard M-16, CAR-15, and Remington 700 .308 sniper rifle, as he was assigned to be the platoon sniper. More exotic weapons, which were used less often, included the Swedish K, Sten, M-3 Grease Gun, and the suppressed High Standard pistol. Open bolt weapons were often preferred by the SEAL’s, who would swim in from the ocean, and often hit the beach shooting. Open bolt machineguns could be brought into action faster than close bolt weapons such as the M-16.

One of Harry’s most exciting experiences with a suppressed handgun took place during his second tour, when he was a PRU advisor in 1969, in the town of Soc Tran. Word had been received that there was a high level Viet Cong sector chief who wanted to defect. This individual happened to be the intelligence officer for the whole region and had a great deal of valuable information. The mission was to kidnap him and take him alive. The sector chief’s home was completely surrounded by two rings of guards, so no one could get in to him without the alarm going off. The only weakness in their defense was that the house and guards were very close to the edge of the main river. The guards had a san pan in the river to monitor other boats in the area. Whenever a boat would approach the beach, the guards would send a signal to run the boat off. No boats could approach, and no one could walk near the house.

Harry’s chief at the time, Bob Gallagher, reminded him that they were frogmen, and suggested that they swim in to retrieve him. The two SEAL’s took a Chu Hoi ( a former Viet Cong, who had surrendered and changed sides and was working with the American’s) on the mission. The three men loaded their gear for the swim to grab the sector chief. Harry’s weapons for that night included a CAR-15, a 9mm Smith and Wesson Model 39 pistol, knife, and grenades on all of which were stowed on H-gear suspenders. The men had to swim 600 yards down river from the point of land, after sliding off their PBR (Patrol Boat River) into the water. Life jackets were tied to the gear, and the men breast-stroked toward the shore pulling their equipment behind them. About half way to shore, the former VC’s life vest failed and he started drowning. Harry swam to the man, who was splashing wildly in the water, to quiet him down, and prevent discovery. As Harry approached, the scout jumped on him in an effort to save himself. This action forced Harry underwater from the weight of the two men and his own gear. Harry was wearing jungle boots, instead of fins, and was barely able to hold up the scout, his own head, and his gear. The scout continued to struggle and climb further up on Harry’s arm, which was holding onto the gear. During the struggle, the scout ruptured Harry’s life jacket, leaving the two men with no floatation devices, and Harry holding 80 pounds of gear in one hand and a 90 pound man in the other. Harry dropped the gear, placed the scout in a crossed chest carry, and swam to the beach.

The good news was they survived to reach the beach. The bad news was that the two men had lost all their weapons and gear, and were deep in Indian country. Luckily, Gallagher had made it safely to the beach with all his gear. Harry leaned over to Bob and told him they needed to return home. Gallagher replied that they could still accomplish the mission, as the house was only a short distance away. The element of surprise was still on their side for the snatch and grab. As Harry had no weapon, Bob gave him his own backup weapon- a suppressed High Standard .22 pistol with a spare magazine and the radio wrapped in a plastic bag. The men covered themselves with lily pads as they laid against the bank of the canal, and waited for first light. As the tide went out, the men became more exposed, but the mud that they were covered with kept them camouflaged.

As the sun rose, Harry heard a Viet Cong soldier walking in the mud behind him. The VC had his hands on the bow of a san pan. There were three more VC in the san pan, which was attempting to come ashore through the mud. The VC pulling the boat had mud up to his calves and walked right between Harry’s legs. Harry rolled over to look, and when he did the VC spotted his eyes. Harry shot the man twice in the chest. The man merely flinched and didn’t realize he was shot, because the pistol made no noise. The VC reached into the boat for his AK-47, but Harry took careful aim and shot him in the throat, dropping him immediately.

The next VC in the boat stood up with his AK-47 to see what had happened to his buddy. He saw the body of his friend laying in the mud, but before he could react, Harry shot him several times with the High Standard. These shots had a minimal effect and the VC started to turn his AK toward Harry. At the same time, Harry had emptied his ten round clip, and the slide locked to the rear. Luckily, Gallagher heard the slide lock and turned with his CAR to finish off the wounded VC, and shoot the other two Viet Cong in the boat. The gunfire had alerted the VC at the house to their presence, and Harry suggested that this would be good time to leave. Gallagher said no that they should attack and went off by himself towards the house. The scout, who was unarmed remained put. Harry ran up to the middle of the courtyard, about 30 yards from where he was laying, and attempted to get the radio working.

Gallagher had taken the fight to the VC. Harry heard shots being fired, and a fight inside the house. Once the radio was working, Harry requested immediate extraction. The response from the Mike Boat which was assigned to pick them up came as, “No problem, we’ll be there in 30 minutes.” Harry responded that the fight would be over in one minute, and they were needed right away. They responded to Harry that they would do their best to be there as soon as possible. Harry’s friend Scott Kelly was a Gunner’s Mate on the Mike Boat and was armed with a GE Minigun.

The fight in the house continued, and Harry took a look around. Forty-five degrees from the house and inland, across five hundreds meters of rice paddies, Harry sighted twenty to thirty uniformed soldiers with guns running down the treeline. Harry yelled for Gallagher so they could escape the oncoming soldiers. He then directed the scout to retrieve an AK-47 and ammunition pouch from the dead VC in the mud. Gallagher emerged from the house dragging the sector chief, who was shot in the femur. Harry directed everyone to the main canal where they could easily be picked up by a boat or a helicopter. Once they were in position, Harry heard his call sign on the radio, “Moose Jaw 7 Bravo, be advised we’re right off your flank and coming hot!”

The PBR had turned off their engines during the night after dropping off the men and floated towards Harry’s position in anticipation of trouble. It was a good thing the PBR had stayed in the area as the Mike Boat was too slow and too far out for an immediate rescue. Harry stood up, waved his hat, pointed first at his blond hair and then at the approaching enemy troops 150 yards away. The PBR cranked up its engines and slid around the corner. Harry again pointed out the enemy and the gunner on the bow of the boat smiled at Harry, and then opened up his twin .50’s. As the boat slammed into the embankment, Harry and Gallagher shoved the wounded sector chief and the scout up into the boat while brass was streaming down on them. Their efforts got the two Vietnamese into the boat, but also sunk Harry and Gallagher hip-deep into the mud. The boat crew reached down and pulled the two SEAL’s to safety, slammed the engines into reverse, peeling the boat backwards and upwards into the river. The gunner on the front never lost his sight and continued firing at the enemy as the boat spun around.

As Gallagher and Harry laid exhausted on top of the other men, Harry wondered out loud if there would be many more days like this one. Gallagher responded with, “See, I told you that High Standard would work for you!”