By Matt Smith

The first time I saw a suppressed .44 caliber weapon was at the 1999 National Suppressor Trials, held at the Knob Creek Range in Kentucky. John Tibbetts brought a suppressed Ruger 77/44 rifle that really impressed not only me, but also many of the participants and witnesses at the trials. It was quiet, accurate, handy, and very well made. Since that time, John has sold his truck dealership, built a new 3,600 square foot shop on his ranch in East Texas, and has been devoting his attention full time to the suppressor business. Recently, John upgraded his baffle design and added two new models of .44 caliber weapons to his line of suppressors.

John currently offers .44 caliber suppressors built on three different firearms. These include the Ruger 77/44 bolt-action rifle, Ruger 96/44 lever-action rifle, and the Thompson Center Encore single-shot pistol. The suppressed Ruger 77/44 bolt-action has been available since 1999. The Ruger 96/44 and the Thompson Center Encore are new offerings for this year. All three models are available in a blued or bead blasted stainless finish and include a takedown tool for the user to disassemble the front end and remove the baffles for cleaning. Customers can either send in their own host weapon to be suppressed or purchase a complete suppressed firearm from John’s Guns. The new baffle design is now being installed as standard equipment on all three weapons and an upgrade service is available for those with the earlier type baffles. The upgrade service costs $125, plus shipping.

The suppressed Ruger 77/44 is an integral system with a 20-inch long tube, which is 1.25 inches in diameter. The current model utilizes a 16.5-inch long barrel, which is machined and placed under tension in a retainer ring to enhance accuracy. The barrel is lightly ported to vent gases into the rear chamber of the suppressor tube. Five of the improved baffles – made of high grade aluminum and hard-coat anodized for durability – are stacked on top of the tensioned barrel and held in place by a threaded and machined end cap. The stock is expertly routed to assure a close fit of the suppressor tube. If the host gun is stainless, John uses 304 seamless stainless tubing and bead blasts the bolt receiver and outer tube to match. If the host gun is blued, he uses 4140 carbon steel tubing, which is blued to match the rest of the rifle. The suppressed 96/44 is also an integral system with a 20-inch long tube, measuring 1.25 inches in diameter. It has the same basic suppressor as the 77/44, but placed on the lever-action host gun. John had to design some new tooling and fixtures for this new offering to insure the same level of close fit and finish. Like the 77/44, the 96/44 is an excellent platform for suppression because of the availability of factory .44 Special ammunition. These rounds are subsonic, do not produce a ballistic crack down range when fired, and are available off the shelf.

The suppressed Thompson Center Encore is available in variety of suppressor tube lengths, depending on customer wishes. The example tested for this article utilized a twenty inch tube over a 12.5-inch barrel with nine baffles. Customers can contact John to discuss what configurations may be available.

John, in conjunction with Tom Sipos of Weatherly, Pennsylvania, has developed .44 magnum cased subsonic ammunition for use in his suppressed .44 weapons. These loads use a variety of bullets, including 300-grain Sierra jacketed soft points, 300-grain Nosler jacketed hollow-points, and 300-grain Hornady XTP jacketed hollow-points. These rounds from Sipos’ Guns and Ammo provide much higher subsonic velocities than .44 Special rounds, with excellent accuracy. Testing for this article included some of these rounds, as well as Black Hills .44 Special 210-grain flat-point lead bullets.

Customers who have purchased John’s suppressed .44 rifles include the State of Kentucky, the State of California, the State of Alaska, and the State of Colorado. These users include Fish and Wildlife personnel from these states and others. Suppressed rifles are used for animal control, with the purpose of removing encroaching animals, regardless of their size. Law enforcement customers regard this caliber as far superior to the .22 Long Rifle cartridge.

Three different configurations of John’s Guns .44 suppressors were evaluated and tested for the purpose of this article. The suppressed Ruger 77/44 was of the earlier design utilizing the original baffles and spacers and a 16.5-inch barrel. The Ruger 96/44 tested incorporated the new baffle design with a 16.5-inch barrel. The Thompson Center Encore pistol tested had a 12.5-inch barrel and nine of the newest baffles. These differences in the suppressed firearms account for the differences in the sound meter testing results.

The sound testing equipment utilized as well as the procedures were in accordance with the Department of Defense Design Criteria Military Standard 1474D. A Bruel and Kjaer Type 2209 Impulse Precision Sound Pressure Meter, with the setting on “A” weighting and peak hold was used with a B&K Type 4136 1/4-inch condenser microphone. The meter was calibrated using a B&K 4230 calibrator prior to the tests. The microphone was placed one meter away from the front of the suppressor or muzzle. The microphone was pointed straight up oriented at a 90-degree angle from the bullet flight path. The weapons were fired 1.6 meters above the ground. Velocity data was obtained using a P.A.C.T. Mark 4 chronograph with skyscreens set 24 inches apart and the start screen 8 feet from the muzzle. These are the industry standard procedures for suppressor testing.

The ammunition used is all commercially available. Ten-shot strings were recorded for each weapon and the average reading obtained has been provided. Limited accuracy testing was conducted for the 300-grain subsonic loads available through John’s Guns and Sipos’ Ammunition.

Testing began with the Ruger 77/44 bolt-action rifle. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 151.5 dB using Black Hills .44 Special 210-grain flat-point lead bullets with an average velocity of 817 fps. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 159.1 dB for the Sipos’ 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP with an average velocity of 1,275 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 129.1 dB for John’s Guns 77/44 with the earlier baffle stack shooting the Black Hills .44 Special for an overall reduction of 22.4 dB at 701 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 138.9 dB for the Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP for an overall sound reduction of 20.2 dB at an average velocity of 1,035 fps. Velocities and terminal ballistics were much higher with the Sipos ammunition when compared to the .44 Special ammunition, with some sacrifice in sound reduction.

The second weapon tested was the Ruger 96/44 lever-action rifle with the upgraded baffle stack. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 152.2 dB using Black Hills .44 Special 210-grain flat-point lead bullets with an average velocity of 807 fps. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 160.2 dB for the Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP with an average velocity of 1,240 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 125.5 dB for John’s Guns 96/44 with the latest baffle stack shooting the Black Hills .44 Special for an overall reduction of 26.7 dB at 720 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 133.7 dB for the Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP with an overall sound reduction of 26.5 dB at an average velocity of 1,160 fps. It’s obvious from these test results that the new baffle stack actually increases the velocities over the earlier baffle stack and greatly reduces the overall sound levels.

The third weapon tested was John’s Guns suppressed Thompson Center Encore .44 pistol. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 157.1 dB using Black Hills .44 Special 210-grain flat-point lead bullets with an average velocity of 647 fps. Unsuppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 160.7 dB for the Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP with an average velocity of 984 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 127.1 dB for John’s Guns Encore pistol with the latest baffle stack shooting the Black Hills .44 Special for an overall reduction of 30 dB at 659 fps. Suppressed sound pressure measurements averaged 131.8 dB for the Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP for an overall sound reduction of 28.9 dB at an average velocity of 1,001 fps.

Accuracy testing was conducted with both rifles using Sipos’ .44 magnum subsonic ammunition. Five shot groups were shot off of a bench rest at fifty yards. John’s Guns suppressed 77/44 shot a 0.625-inch group with Sipos 300-grain Hornady XTP JHP and a 0.75-inch group with Nosler 300-grain JHP. The John’s Guns suppressed Ruger 96/44 shot a 0.75 inch group using the same ammunition. This level of accuracy for the suppressed rifles actually exceeds the accuracy of the unsuppressed rifles.

When John first designed and built his suppressed 77/44 Ruger rifle, he felt it was important that customers should be able to disassemble the suppressor for maintenance. However, over the years that this rifle has been available, John has never received one back for baffle cleaning problems. John intentionally left the barrel of his suppressed rifles at least 16 inches long to avoid any potential violations of the NFA regarding short-barreled rifles. With the success and greater suppression of the newer style baffles in the Thompson Center Encore pistol, John is now working on developing a similar configuration for the Ruger 77/44 and 96/44 rifles. In order to shorten the barrels on these rifles and add additional baffles, John will have to seal the suppressor tubes, which will no longer be serviceable by the customer. John feels that this configuration will be a valuable addition to his current suppressor offerings with an even greater level of sound suppression.

John Tibbetts has made positive strides in his suppressor designs with the development of his new baffle design and its incorporation into Ruger .44 caliber rifles and Thompson Center Encore pistols. The new subsonic .44 magnum 300-grain loads developed with Sipos’ Guns and Ammo greatly increase the lethality of these weapons with outstanding accuracy. John is continuing to enhance his suppressor offerings with the development of a sealed .44 suppressor with an extended baffle stack. Whether for law enforcement applications, hunting where permitted, or for pleasure shooting, any of John Tibbetts’ suppressed .44’s would more than meet an end user’s requirements.

John’s Guns
Dept. SAR
761 FM 2134
Voss, TX 76888
PH/FAX (915) 357-4526

Black Hills Ammunition
Dept. SAR
P.O. Box 3090
Rapid City, SD 57709-3090
(605) 348-5150
www.black-hills.com

Sipos’ Guns & Ammunition
Dept. SAR
203 6th Street
Weatherly, PA 18255
(570) 427-9810

By Matt Smith

SAR: How did you get interested in manufacturing?

JONATHAN: It all started when I was five years old and my grandmother bought me a Tonka truck, which I played with. Later, the mechanical stuff started when I would buy junker motorcycles, taking them apart and putting them back together. I started with a Comet motor scooter that had a Briggs and Stratton motor in it. My dad and I made it run and kept it running. One day the frame broke, and I dropped by a machine shop to get it fixed. The machinist made me a gusset on a Bridgeport and heli-arced it onto the frame. I thought this was the coolest thing, and told myself that one day I would own one of those machines. I finally bought a Sears Atlas lathe for $200 that I used to make my first silencers on, and I still have it. Later, we bought a bigger lathe for $600, and were using a drill vice in the drill press to drill the holes. We finally got a manual Bridgeport after a nine month wait and paying $2000. The last machine we bought was for $400,000, and we bought two of those!

SAR: How did your interest in firearms develop?

JONATHAN: It began when I started going to the local gun shop in Cocoa, where I would buy a gun, put some money down, and pick it up when I paid the balance of the money. I got an AR-15 way back when I was in college, then I got an Atchisson MK I .22 conversion kit. I started playing around with silencers, and found them to be pretty nice, so I decided to build some of my own to see if they would sell. I put a one or two inch ad in Shotgun News, and I was the first person to ever do that, to commercially sell silencers. The phone started ringing. At the time, I was building houses with my brother. He was a contractor and had the big crew cab Ford pick-up trucks with the old style mobile phone that hung down from the ceiling. It was as big as a damn shoebox. My brother complained because I had put the mobile phone number in the ad. It got to the point that I was spending lots of time on the radio phone at the construction site and it started to get in the way of the contractors getting a hold of me to build houses. When the housing boom died during the Carter Administration, it allowed me to turn all my attention to building silencers. Instead of doing this in the evenings and on the weekends, as I had been, I went full time in the garage at home.

SAR: What were the first models of silencers that you made?

JONATHAN: They were the M16, 10/22, and the MK II pistol. These designs, although considered old technology by some, still hold up well next to the newer silencers on the market. As I tell people, it’s like a car. Give me an old ’66 Mustang, and I’ll still be driving down the road when you’re in getting your computer box on yours fixed. I can get any parts I need at the local auto parts store for pennies, compared to having to buy a $400 carburetor that you can’t take apart any more.

SAR: Is that what you drive, a Mustang?

JONATHAN: No, classic Mustangs are now too expensive because people realize the value of old technology.

SAR: How long did you operate out of your garage?

JONATHAN: I did that less than a couple of years, and bought a building in Titusville, in 1979. We moved to our current location in Cape Canaveral in 1991, after outgrowing the Titusville shop. The new machines that I needed wouldn’t fit in the old shop. We had to cut a hole in the ceiling for the one we had and have a crane set it in through the ceiling. We had to build a stack hood on the roof because of the height of the machine. The old shop had been 3000 square feet, and the new one is 15,000 square feet. We are now at the point where we’ve about outgrown this place.

SAR: Before the machinegun ban in 1986, what were some of your machinegun conversions?

JONATHAN: Mostly AR-15’s to select fire, AK’s. Uzi’s, and HK’s including the MP5 with the integral one stamp suppressor.

SAR: How much notice did you have that the machinegun ban was coming in 1986?

JONATHAN: Lots! So we built sears like Fleming and others did, as fast as we could build them. My design was different though. I actually stopped making them after so many, figuring that I had more than enough to sell in any reasonable amount of time. Now, this turns out to have been a serious mistake.

SAR: Were the manufacturers worried that they would also ban silencers at this time?

JONATHAN: People that didn’t listen to what was going on may have thought this, but if you paid attention to the news and the congressional record, it was not in there. The way it came down, the Democrats conspired in the 11th hour and 55 minutes even though they weren’t that prepared and didn’t think that the ban would actually go through. Unfortunately for us, it did, so the law was passed. Fortunately, we still had time before it was signed by the President to build all the stuff we wanted.

SAR: What about your destructive devices business?

JONATHAN: I gave it up, because there wasn’t any money in it. I made about 24 M203 40MM grenade launchers. It was fun, entertaining, and interesting to do something different for a while, but it didn’t pay the bills, and I ended up dropping my DD license.

SAR: Back in the early days of the business, who else was manufacturing suppressors?

JONATHAN: Doc Dater was. Later, he was connected with Lynn McWilliams and AWC. Reed Knight came along a little later, but he only sold to the military. I don’t care to do business with the military, too much paper work, red tape, and too many people trying to cut each others throats to get the contracts, and after spending a lot of time and money somebody else usually ends up with the contract and you walk away with nothing.

SAR: When did you first get involved with the .22 LR conversion kits?

JONATHAN: In 1984, we started the production of the Mini-14 .22 conversion kits. It was so successful that the people that owned the Atchisson MK II and were having trouble with their current manufacturer in Dayton, Ohio, called me up and asked if I would be interested in manufacturing their kits. After looking at it, we arrived at an agreement. I flew up to Dayton, rented a U-Haul Truck, picked up all the tooling, and brought it to the old shop in Titusville, and started building them. I eventually ended up buying the rights to the Atchisson kits, and now I own it all.

SAR: How did you get involved with miniguns?

JONATHAN: It started with John Wayne movies, where they used the old original Gatling guns. A person that likes mechanical things, who likes guns, what a perfect combination! I also had a hand crank BB machinegun as a kid that I ordered from the back of a cereal box for so many box tops and $5. I would set up my toy soldiers and then mow them down with my BB machinegun. I remember seeing my first miniguns in Viet Nam on the gunships. Later, at a Houston gun show, when I was on the road selling silencers at gun shows, I saw a minigun for sale for $5000. I stood drooling at this thing, and knew there wasn’t a possibility that I could come up with that kind of money at the time. Considering I was driving a Ford Escort stationwagon, building silencers on a $600 lathe, and lucky to sell $2000 worth of guns on the weekend, I knew I couldn’t lay down $5000 for something that was not going to create income and was just going to eat ammo. Dale Thomas of Paragon ended up with that gun, and then it went to Syd Stembridge in California. Dan Shea got it after that- from there I don’t know. I ended up building mine from scrap parts. I welded the housing back together, made the rotor, heat treated everything with acetylene torches on the floor of my shop and registered it before the machinegun ban. While looking for parts for the minigun, I picked up enough parts to put my Vulcan cannon together before the minigun was even finished.

SAR: When did manufacturing the .22 kits overtake the suppressor manufacturing as far as your time and interest?

JONATHAN: When the AR-15 kit came along. The Mini-14 kit was good and it moved along with the silencers, but when the AR kit came along, things really got busy. I updated the MKII to the MKIII by improving the firing pin, rails and other features and made it even more reliable. Three other AR-15 kits made by others have come and gone since I updated mine. My most successful conversion kit has been for the 1911 pistol. It has been unbelievable and has outsold all the others. The Glocks and Berettas have also been very successful and we recently unveiled Project X, a .22 conversion for the Thompson sub-machineguns. These are available for either the M1921/M1928 or the M1/M1A1 versions. With the current demand for my various .22 conversion kits and ideas for other firearms whose owners would like a .22 kit, it is to the point where we just don’t have time to devote to the suppressor business. There also are too many others who are making silencers now. I would eventually like to get to the point where I could just design and build the first prototypes of future projects and have someone else take over the day-to-day manufacturing and customer service. I would be content to do this and take a percent of the sales, wait a couple of months and then design and build the next prototype.

SAR: What .22 kit are you developing now?

JONATHAN: One for the Browning High Power pistol. SAR: Jon, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with our readers.

JONATHAN: You are welcome.

Jonathan Arthur Ciener, Inc.
8700 Commerce Street
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920
PH (321) 868-2200
FAX (321) 868-2201
www.22lrconversions.com

By Matt Smith

SAR: Tim, tell us a little bit about your personal background.

TIM: I grew up in Cleveland and went to Case Institute of Technology there. My father, among other things, was a labor organizer and all the guys that came to my dad’s house carried guns. Growing up, I assumed that every man carried a handgun. I had six uncles that were tool and die makers, and every one of them had a machine shop in their basement. By the time I was eleven, I was working in the shops and was an accomplished machinist by the age of sixteen. Back in the 1950’s and ‘60’s, guys had Thompsons. It was before the 1968 Gun Control Act, and a lot of people had machine guns. An FFL cost a dollar back then. I got to go the rifle trials with FN, who was working on the FAL with a friend of my fathers, who worked for the government. A typical summer vacation was to go to the Smith and Wesson plant in New England to see friends of my dad.

I eventually got married and we moved from coast to coast. We were out in California for about 5 years, two years in Los Angeles, 2 years in San Jose, and a year in San Diego, until we moved back east, where my wife got a job and I went to medical school at John Hopkins University in Baltimore. After three years of medical school, I quit and took a job in Pasadena as an engineer.

After a year, I found out from a co-worker, who was a reserve cop, that the Pasadena Police were hiring, and I got on with their department. While I was in training in 1977, I got seriously injured and ruined my knee. I spent the next two years in a wheel chair, and the next five years on crutches. Throughout all of these jobs, I had a machine shop that I ran on my own time. I was able with the help of some friends to continue my machine shop work while in the wheel chair, and that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.

SAR: What kind of machine work did you do?

TIM: I mainly worked on pistols. I would take the Star model B and turn them into .38 Supers. I also did some work for the Agency while at John Hopkins. Early on, I ran into Gordon Ingram and Juan Erquiaga of Police Ordnance and did some traveling with them to South America. That’s where I made some early contacts with the Agency and got my love for traveling.

SAR: When did you get your first FFL?

TIM: In 1973, when I was in Baltimore, I opened La France Specialties because I was manufacturing handguns on my own. I had a little hole in the wall, underground shop. It was in an old Safeway warehouse, and the basement of it had been converted to a range during World War II. We had a permit to train the security guards for their concealed weapons permit. It was one of the most dangerous jobs I’ve ever had because of all the accidental discharges bouncing off the concrete walls. Finally in 1977, after I got hurt, I started working on guns full time. I started doing service work for the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department and individual officers on LAPD, as well as the guys I worked with on the Pasadena Department. I built up a pretty good business, to the point where I was making enough money to support my family. When we moved to San Diego, we rented a house and put the shop in the garage, and started picking up business from there as well. I continued to do this service work until about 1988 working for up to 100 departments, and built compact pistols into the mid ‘90’s.

SAR: When did you start developing silencers?

TIM: I’ve been interested in silencers since I was a kid. In the early ‘80’s, I developed a high frequency silencer that I now use on the .50 Browning machinegun, the M-4 .223, and the .308. The one silencer that interested me the most growing up was the Jarrett. It was developed by Frank Jarrett, who worked for Springfield Arsenal as an ordnance engineer, and whom I had met when I was younger. His idea was to make a silencer like a dog whistle, where the sound frequency was so high that nobody could hear it. It wouldn’t have to be big and bulky to convert the frequency so that nobody could hear it, and all you would have to live with was the ballistic crack. He had a patent on it, and he used it on a Springfield rifle. The silencer was about four inches long and an inch in diameter. The problem with his design was that it was open and very dependent on atmospheric conditions and the pressure of the cartridge, among other things. Fifteen or twenty years later when I started working on it, I believed that if you did it in a closed container and could drive the pressure constantly it would be more effective. The problem with the earlier version was that it was open and like blowing in a dog whistle, you could hear the sound as you built up pressure, then it would go silent as you held the pressure and the sound went out of your hearing range. It could then be heard again when the pressure dropped off. This is one reason that the suppressor must go back over the barrel and uses the pressure that it builds up in the accumulator to drive the pump assembly. In October of 1983, we went to the Soldier of Fortune Convention and I took my suppressed .308 rifle and fired over one hundred rounds and it didn’t make any noise. This early version was very big, as it contained ten baffles and the pump assembly. I was able to finally get this shortened by five inches using only five baffles. This design will only work with rifle calibers because it requires 45,000 PSI in the chamber area to function. I basically use the same suppressor for each caliber by changing the size of the holes in the baffles. This suppressor shifts the sound frequency up to 40,000 cycles, where it goes unheard by the human ear. Mitch Werbell developed suppressors with Sionics that had pressure relief valves in the back to lower the pressure, keep the parts from failing, and reduce the temperature. Like Jarrett, he was an inspiration to me as he was the first modern silencer manufacturer to make suppressors in a reasonable size and with good performance.

SAR: How much do your suppressors cost?

TIM: The price on the 9 mm, .223, and .308 high power rifle cans are $700 each. We charge $175 to fit the rifle stock, reinforce, and bed it. The .50 caliber can is very expensive because we have almost $2000 in them with parts and machining in each one. The .22 screw on cans for the Ruger pistols are $350 each, plus $165 to install them. Installation includes threading, turning and drilling holes in the barrel.

SAR: How did you get involved with the movie gun business?

TIM: That’s an interesting story! It started with a guy named Joe Swanson, who lived in the San Diego area, and made blank ammunition for the movies since 1974. Joe was a friend of mine and knew I didn’t really want anything to do with the movie people following a negative experience I had from the movie, Day of the Jackal, where I had trouble getting paid for work I had done. One day, in about 1980, Joe dropped by the shop with an Uzi and asked me what was wrong with it. After looking at it, I told him the bolt was crooked and the trigger group wasn’t converted cleanly, but that I could fix it for about $200. He asked if I could have it done by the end of the week. When I found out it was a movie gun, I told him yes, but he had to pay me cash when he came to pick it up. I had it fixed a couple days later and called Joe to come pick it up. He came by and paid me in cash, but then asked me if I could fix seven more also by the end of the week. At the time, I could use the money so I said I would. Joe came back Saturday with a check from Syd Stembridge made out to me. I was sure it wouldn’t cash because it was a movie industry check, not because of Syd- the movie industry had a history of stiffing the gun handlers, but I was pleasantly surprised when it did. I finally started working directly with Syd, but made him go with me to the bank to cash the checks the first few times. Ellis Mercantile, the other big movie gun business at that time got hold of me and offered me half up front to work on their guns. That’s when I started converting the guns to full automatic. We did about 400 MP-5’s, 400 AK’s, all the Desert Eagles, and a bunch more until about 1992, when the bottom fell out and they started filming offshore. I did a lot of specialty guns, like the sleeve derringer and “Pobyrin 9.2 mm” based on the Desert Eagle in Red Heat, and the plumbers’ gun for a Bill Friedken movie, where all the parts came out of the plumbers tool box to make a silenced rifle. We got an order once from Stembridge for eight Micro Uzi’s, but he wanted them two-tone nickel plated with jeweled handles. We also made the Micro’s for Chuck Norris in his action movies. I even picked up Miami Vice, doing all their work. In 1986, just before the machinegun ban, we took in 1200 guns to be converted, started the work by drilling the holes and engraving them, and didn’t finish up some of those until 1989. The first movie set that I delivered to personally was for Arnold Schwarzenegger who was starring in Running Man. I made some full auto .22 Calico’s for the movie and got to take my ten year old son with me. He was thrilled to meet Arnold in person. I also did the guns for Commando, and for some Clint Eastwood movies.

SAR: What new products or services are you currently offering?

TIM: Our new .45 ACP M16-K will be out June 1st. We used to make them from plate, and now we make them from our own forgings. Eventually, I’ll do a run of semi-auto M14-K’s with the M60 gas system on it for reduced recoil. We continue to offer our twin tube gas system for shorty M16’s, which increases reliability and a tungsten buffer which slows the cyclic rate to 650 rounds per minute. You can get both for $250 installed. We also make a tungsten buffer and a heavier spring for the Benelli shotguns and can shorten the barrels to 14 inches.

SAR: Tim, I know our readers will enjoy this interview. Thanks!

TIM: You’re welcome!

La France Specialties
P.O. Box 87933
San Diego, California 92138
Phone: (619) 293-3373

SAR: How long did you work with Dan Tanner before going out on your own?

Ty: I worked with him off and on for two years, until one day when Dan told me that I was really good at this and should be doing this on my own. He complimented me on my workmanship, quality, and new designs, and encouraged me to get my own manufacturing license, which I did. I started out part time, since I had a full time job as an electrician. There was a student that was going to a local Christian college studying advertising and marketing. He asked if he could do his final report on my business, from where I started to where I am now. This included manufacturing from the raw materials to the finished cans. The first year in business, I made about 20 suppressors, which was mostly for fun. I was making good money as an electrician at the time. The second year, I made about 60 suppressors. I was out in the shop more working at night. The third year, I made nearly 100 suppressors. This was the point where I started asking myself what I really wanted to do. At about the same time, the company I was working for went out of business, which more or less made up my mind to start manufacturing full time. I did some advertising, got my web site built, and my business just took off. I think the main thing that kept my business going was that customers liked the quality, the looks, and the price.

SAR: Tell us about your shop and the equipment you’re using.

Ty: My shop was originally in my garage, where I had kept my two race cars. One by one, the cars were removed as I started getting equipment. I’ve got a nice lathe, a couple of milling machines, a drill press, a grinder, a solvent tank, a bead blast cabinet, a band saw, and an Iron Worker punch. I just picked up a nice Okuma CNC lathe. It has eight tool heads and a seventeen-inch swing. A new industrial park has gone in nearby, and I have moved my shop there. I have gone from a 24 X 30 shop to a 2000 square foot shop. I will also open up as a general machine shop, in addition to the firearms business. It is only about 2 miles away from my former location.

SAR: What were the first suppressors you started manufacturing once you were out on your own?

Ty: Integral Mark 2 pistols. At the time, many of the other suppressed Mark 2’s were full of packing material and miscellaneous parts and pieces. They were a pain to get back together. I wanted to simplify the design, and reduce the number of items in the assembly. I started by combining the baffles and spacers into one piece. My design includes an aluminum inner tube over the barrel with an end cap, the spacer and baffle assembly, the outer tube, and an end cap. I started with a setscrew to hold it all together, but found that after a couple years of use, a gap developed between the receiver and the tube. I don’t like to copy other people’s stuff, because not only is that not righteous, I like to come up with my own ideas. I decided to drill a hole in the bottom of the end cap, where you could stick the end of an Allen wrench to tighten or loosen the threaded end cap. I now thread my outer tube onto the receiver, mill a slot for the sights, which are welded from the underside of the tube, and it all makes a nice package. Some of the other guns that we suppress are the Ruger 10/22, 77/22, Buckmark .22 rifle, Marlin Papoose .22 rifle, various sub-machineguns and high power rifles. I also make a screw on .22 suppressor.

SAR: What type of materials do you use in your suppressors?

Ty: On the stainless guns, everything is stainless. On the parkerized guns, the only thing that’s steel is the barrel, the outside tube, and the end cap. All the internal parts, including the baffles, are stainless. The outer tube is 4130 chrome moly, and the end cap is tool steel.

SAR: How does the 77/22 suppressor differ from the 10/22 suppressor?

Ty: The internal barrel for the 77/22 is 15 inches long, verses 13 inches for the 10/22. The outside tube is therefore longer by 2 inches on the 77/22. Both guns use the same baffle stack, but the 10/22 has a 16 inch tube and the 77/22 has an 18 inch tube.

SAR: Can you describe your .22 screw on suppressor?

Ty: This can measures 1 inch by 6 inches long, and is made totally of 304 stainless. Two mounts are available for this can. The first type is a 1/2 by 28 internal thread for an external threaded barrel. The second type has a 1/2 by 28 internal thread and an 11/16 by 24 external thread to fit inside an internally threaded bull barrel. This eliminates the need for a thread protector on the bull barrel. This suppressor is designed for both rifle and pistol use.

SAR: What other pistol suppressors do you offer?

Ty: I have a 9mm pistol suppressor that measures one inch by seven inches long, and weighs 4 and 1/2 ounces. Most of these are threaded 1/2 by 28, but I can also do a 1/2 by 32 if necessary. These suppressors are made of 7075 T8 aluminum, and will cycle on a Glock 17, some Glock 19’s, Sig P226, and all Beretta 92’s without a recoil regulator. I also have a .40 caliber pistol can, that includes a recoil regulator to insure cycling in all pistols, including Glock’s.

SAR: Have you had any problems with your cans?

Ty: I’ve only had a few cans to come back for repair. One was from a dealer in Alaska who had worn out the spring in the recoil regulator of his .40 cal pistol suppressor after firing thousands of rounds through it. Another instance was when I received back the second 10/22 rifle I had ever suppressed, from George Denkins. Back in those days, I wasn’t Parkerizing, I was moly coating. George wanted the suppressor rebuilt and parkerized. He had had his suppressor on a full auto 10/22 and shot the heck out of it. When I opened up the tube to rebuild it, I was pleased to find out that there was only a small amount of carbon, and no lead build up. I also had to recall some .223 cans that I sold. I had an idea for lightweight .223 cans using a thinner tube material than usual. I made ten of these and ended up recalling them all because with excessive firing they would heat up and bulge. Seven of the ones I received back had only been fired in semi auto and were fine. Two of them came back blown up, and one has never been sent back. I replaced all of these for free with cans made of my regular materials.

SAR: What suppressors do you make for submachine guns?

Ty: I make an MP-5 can, using Gemtech’s three lug quick disconnect, as well as suppressors for the UMP-40 and UMP-45 with a quick disconnect that I designed. I make a combination can that can be used on both a 9mm or .30 caliber weapon. I can supply adaptors including three lug mounts, threaded adaptors for M11/9, MAC 10, Uzi, KG-9, or any other thread pattern required on the host weapon. I also make Uzi cans, as well as Smith & Wesson 76 cans. One of the most interesting cans I’ve built was an integral suppressor on a Yugo 49, which is the only one that I know of in the world and is it awesome! This gun was originally 7.62 X 25mm and was never designed to be suppressed. John Nichols is the lucky owner of this weapon, which is now a 9mm. I made an adaptor so that Sten magazines can be used with this firearm. This adaptor will also allow you to use Sten magazines in a PPSH-41. I just made a new suppressor for a 5.45 X 39mm for the AK-74 Krinkov or full size rifle. It is an exact exterior copy of the Russian suppressors, which are not available in the United States. This is a complex suppressor which utilizes four different external pieces, and has a tang on the front that can be rotated to different positions for more accurate firing. I manufactured this suppressor based on a picture out of a Russian book that was scaled by Steve Hill of Spotted Dog Firearms of Arizona. The idea came from a friend of Steve’s who works for the SAS, where they have a real suppressor in their vault. I designed the internals, since there were no specifics available on the baffle stack. Another big seller is the Greasegun suppressor that I manufacture. I’ve produced over thirty of these in the last several months, as no other manufacturers seem to be making these actively right now. This can looks similar to my MAC suppressors which have the two stage look. I use an inch and 3/4 tube for one stage and then press four inches of two inch tube over the main tube to give it the two stage look. The can is ten inches by an inch and 3/4, with the two inch back piece. Anyone who wants one of these should send me a barrel and $400, and I will send you back the suppressed barrel assembly. These are extremely efficient suppressors! One of my personal achievements is an integrally suppressed 30.06 Ruger M77. It sounds like a pellet gun when you fire it. I’ve also built these in .308 on a Remington 700 rifle. I port the barrel so that the velocity of military ball ammo is reduced to 960 feet per second. These are basically one hundred yard guns, but are extremely quiet, and you don’t have to use expensive subsonic ammunition.

SAR: What other products do you offer, other than suppressors?

Ty: I can repair just about any machinegun. Krinkov’s and M16’s are my favorites to work on. My favorite Krinkov has a six inch barrel with a K grip and my favorite M16’s have seven and 1/2 inch barrels, which all cycle like a champ. Occasionally, I have to retard the timing, and I do this by adding material to the hammer to eliminate the light strikes. Another specialty is to modify weapons into short-barreled rifles. My M96 Robinson rifle has been shortened and now has a ten-inch barrel. I’ve also started to build a semiautomatic MG-42, and I’m having to figure that one out as I go along.

SAR: Ty, I think the most impressive firearm you’ve shown me is actually your minigun. Can you tell us how this firearm came to be?

Ty: Yes, one of my most unique projects has been manufacturing the six barreled .22 LR “Minigun”. I call it the TL-M133 Electric cannon. This was a collaboration between myself and Brian Abbot. His idea was to have a collar in the front for holding the barrels symmetrically in the front, and a collar in the back to keep everything straight. The collar in the back included skateboard bearings around this round tube to allow the barrels to rotate. I liked the concept but not the execution. I told him to let me design and build my own version of this gun. He was mainly after a certain look, while I wanted it to function properly. We bought six Butler Creek bull barrels, threading each of the barrels 1/2 by 28 on the ends with a collar going over the threads, and barrel extensions that thread over the barrels to hold the collar on. There are two more collars that go over the barrel extensions and a soup can that goes in the middle to give it the Minigun look. After the first prototype was put together, we found it to be very heavy, and weighing about fifty-six pounds. We milled down the barrels and shaved eight pounds off the original weight. We used a stainless steel shaft and some eight inch diameter aluminum tubing for the outer housing, with a flat plate of aluminum inside, and two other pieces, one coming up in the front with a high speed bearing pressed into it, and the other piece with a smaller high speed bearing pressed into that in the rear. The shaft goes through the bearings, with the front bearing holding the shaft and the rear bearing keeps it from tipping up and down. There is also a collar on the shaft to keep it from sliding out. When it was first put together, there was too much weight on the end, which made the assembly sag and bounce. To eliminate this problem, I put a bolt on the end of the shaft and a bolt on the inside. These bolts were pulling in opposite directions stretching it out, keeping the shaft straight with no wobbling in any direction. Then we took the round housing and mounted a base plate inside, which was bolted down to form the receiver with a spinning action. A cosmetic plate with holes in it is slid over the barrels to plug up the end. You turn the gun over to insert loaded Ruger 10/22 ten round magazines. There’s a pistol grip that goes on the top with a button to spin the action. It’s actually a Ford Fiesta starter motor to spin the barrels, but this does not fire them. When you pull the trigger, there is a cable that runs up to the front and pulls a firing tang back and forth. So as you pull the trigger, the tang contacts the triggers as the action spins. The BATF has classified this as a Title 1 long gun because there are six individual receivers that are still all semi auto, and are still being fired by one pull of the trigger. This is the same concept as the trigger cranks that are available to rapidly fire other semiautomatic rifles. The electric motor does not fire the gun, but rather the tang trips the trigger to fire it. You can spin it by hand, and still fire the gun or you can spin the motors and not fire it at all. A real Minigun fires because of the motor spinning the barrels, while mine does not. We currently have a provisionary approval from the BATF, but still have to take the gun to the Tech Branch in D.C. for a final classification. They wanted me to register it as a machinegun and send it to them, but I want to be standing right there in person when they evaluate the gun. I now need to find two weeks time to take the gun in person and finalize their evaluation. If anyone is interested in one, they may be purchased for $7000, and I will make the time to visit the Tech Branch.

SAR: Is it true you are involved in the binary exploding target business?

Ty: Yes, I am helping my friend Scott Hall market binary explosives that he has developed. These are produced by SDH Manufacturing and I sell them through TL Guns. These are of extremely high quality when compared to others on the market. A starter kit is available which is comprised of two eight ounce and five two ounce targets, a funnel, mixing bowl, measuring spoon and a stir stick for mixing the two products together. SDH Manufacturing has included pre-measured activator packets for a precise mixture. Targets can also be purchased individually or by the case. We are currently looking for dealers and distributors across the country. The targets must be engaged by a .223 or larger caliber weapon to function. Individuals should check out their local laws and regulations prior to purchase.

SAR: What’s in the future or on the drawing board for TL guns?

Ty: I have a dual Browning 1919 mount that I’ve recently brought out. These cost $1000. There is a base mount with an upper portion where the two guns mount, as well as two ammunition can mounts built into the assembly. My design utilizes a single trigger to fire two automatic weapons or there is a different bar that you can put a crank on for semiautomatic Brownings. I also have a quad 1919 mount in the works that is similar to the quad fifty where you sit behind the four guns to fire them simultaneously. It’s all pneumatic, the whole thing rotates 360 degrees, and the guns move up and down. I have the base plate done and I’m currently working on the mount. I will use solenoids to fire the guns while the pneumatic piston moves the gun up and down. There is a hydraulic motor with a rubber tire on it that runs on the shield to impart motion. I am also working on two shot burst cams for the M16 to retrofit three shot cams. These run $50. Another new item is an integrally suppressed upper for M11/9’s or MAC 10’s. I also offer an adapter to allow the use of an MP5 stock on the MAC’s. A Weaver rail will also be a part of the suppressed MAC uppers. Another option will be a pop up peep rear sight similar to those available for AR-15’s. Something I really would like to perfect is an American 180 upper for M11/9’s or MAC 10’s. This would allow you to fire the large .22 LR drums on your registered MAC or even a semiautomatic MAC. I have had some discussions with Val Cooper at E&L Manufacturing about this project. I am working on a new .50 caliber suppressor for Jason Hinkle’s Alaskan .50 rifle. I couldn’t believe it, he sent the rifle to me wrapped in used boxer shorts. I used pliers to remove them just in case (laughs). I welcome a challenge in this business and will take on just about any project.

SAR: Ty, it has been a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with our readers.

Ty: You’re welcome Matt.

TL Guns & Manufacturing
SDH Technologies & MFG
1298 N. Douglas Avenue

Cottage Grove, OR 97424

Phone (541) 942-8703

Fax (541) 942-6137

Website: http://www.tlguns.com

E-mail: tlguns@tlguns.com

SAR: When did you first become interested in firearms?

Doug: When I was about fourteen years old, I checked out William Helmer’s book from the public library, The Gun That Made the Twenty’s Roar. This was his book about the Thompson submachine gun. That’s when it was decided I wanted my first Thompson, and also peaked my interest in suppressors. I had been thinking about suppressors and mentally designing them since that time. However, it wasn’t until I moved to the free state of Arizona that I was able to pursue my passion for suppressors. The one reason I like suppressors is because I love to shoot but hate the noise associated with it. A lot of people like to make noise, but I don’t. I like to put lead on target as accurately as possible and noise is an unfortunate byproduct of that. I thought that if I could eliminate the noise that it would make shooting more pleasant. This would also be healthier on my hearing, because even with hearing protection your hearing does go away after a while if you do a lot of high volume shooting.

SAR: Did you finally get that Thompson you wanted?

Doug: Yes, it was the first thing I bought after moving here. I had been here just two weeks and found one for sale, paid the seller his money and then the seller held it until I had been a resident long enough to where the local law enforcement would sign off on it.

SAR: Which model Thompson did you buy?

Doug: The first one was a 1928A1 West Hurley gun.

SAR: That makes it sound like you might have more than one.

Doug: You could say I have a passion for Thompson’s! At age fifteen, back in Montana, I wanted my first machine gun, but was too young, plus my mom nixed the idea of my own MG. Then I went to college, and was old enough to own it but couldn’t afford it. Later, after moving to California, I could afford it, but they wouldn’t let me have it. And when I finally got to Arizona, the rest is history.

SAR: Are there any special Thompson’s in your collection that you could tell us about?

Doug: I picked up one of the original Colt guns that sat in the crates at Auto-Ordnance until Numrich Arms bought them in 1951. When they opened the crates, they found 86 unregistered Thompson’s that they promptly stamped serial numbers on and registered with the government. I have one of these Colt guns which is very nice and unusual in that there are no other markings other than the serial number on them. It was apparently a pattern or tool room gun or possibly had some minor quality control issue that prevented them from marking the gun at the time of manufacture.

SAR: Where did you find this gun?

Doug: I got it out of the Champlin Fighter Museum in Mesa, Arizona, when they sold off their assets several years ago. Their collection also included many aircraft guns, a lot of original guns, such a Colt Monitor, early BAR’s, and other rare and unusual pieces.

SAR: When did you first get into the business?

Doug: It was three years ago in June 1998 that I received my first FFL. I had built my first suppressor using a Form 1 a year earlier. It was for my Sten and was fairly effective, but quite large. In August of 1998, my first commercial suppressed guns were made available. They turned out fairly good, but they still needed some work. We have improved our work over the years as my learning increased. All of these different ideas had been piling up in my brain for years, that I wanted to try, and that’s what I started doing; trying these ideas. Some worked fabulously and some of them stank! Unfortunately, in the suppressor business, you don’t know what will or won’t work unless you put it in metal and try it.

SAR: What were your first commercial suppressors?

Doug: Our first suppressors were Ruger Mark 2’s followed closely by the Ruger 10/22’s. W have also suppressed a Remington 597, Marlin 7000, which is a great gun to suppress, Browning Buckmark, which is one of the best guns to work with, the Ruger 96/22 lever action, and people have sent me many other oddball guns to suppress, as well. We’ve done a lot of muzzle cans for those that want screw on suppressors. Recently, SRT has started getting into the larger caliber weapons, such as the Ruger 77/44 rifle, the Marlin .45 Camp Carbine, and most recently we finished a first generation 9MM muzzle can.

SAR: What were your impressions of the Suppressor Trials held at Knob Creek?

Doug: It was a very educational experience. It was the first time I really met most of the people in the industry, and it was very good to see what the other people were building. Most of my suppressor experience was just from what I had invented. I haven’t looked at any other cans and hadn’t seen any other manufacturers suppressors until the suppressor trials. Everything I did was pretty much from scratch and what I saw from pictures in Al Paulson’s first silencer book. Going to the Suppressor Trials gave me a lot of ideas as far as different things to try design-wise, how to try to shrink the size of my suppressors down, and improve the cosmetics of them. A lot of the people there were very helpful with ideas and insights. Nobody there actually told me how to build a suppressor, but as I was complaining about running up against one blank wall after another, some of the people in the industry, both manufacturers and those on the sidelines; when they realized that I was actually doing my own original work, and not copying other peoples work; they opened up a little bit and gave me some insight in different directions to pursue when I ran into problems.

SAR: Doug, tell us about your machine shop.

Doug: I have had my own machine shop since 1990. I moved it here from California. I don’t have any CNC equipment yet. Any high volume requirements are subcontracted out to people that do have that capability. We have a three horsepower Bridgeport style mill and a three horsepower gearhead lathe, both with digital readout, that are used extensively. My welding equipment includes those for tig and arc welding. Going into the suppressor business just meant buying more gunsmithing tools. The rest of suppressor building is just moving metal.

SAR: Have you always been interested in manufacturing?

Doug: With my background in chemical and mechanical engineering, I’ve worked extensively with high-pressure gas fluidics and other areas that are closely related to suppressor manufacturing. I started making my own lab equipment and, although self taught, this experience gave me the background I needed to machine metal. I started putting some of these fluidics ideas into suppressor designs, some of which worked great while others didn’t. My suppressor manufacturing business is set up on the research and development end. I would sooner develop the best suppressor out there rather than make a bunch of cheap crap that I could sell to make some easy money. I would rather sell one good piece versus ten cheap, mediocre pieces. That’s the way I care to operate. We will bring our products to market as they are ready. I don’t want to rush out a .223 or .308 suppressor just because everybody else has one. When we bring out a product and make it available for sale, it’s going to be the best one out there or pretty near the best. It will be better in one or more ways than anything else out there, whether this is suppression ability, reduced size, better price or some other advantage not currently available.

SAR: What are your thoughts about suppressor materials and construction methods?

Doug: I prefer to use stainless steel and aluminum. We will use carbon steel in some cases if someone needs a blued gun, but prefer the machineability of aluminum and the corrosion resistance of stainless steel, particularly in the .22 caliber and 9mm subgun cans. As soon as we get into the high-pressure, centerfire rifle, we need to start talking exclusively stainless steel with some Inconel or other exotic metal parts for the heat and corrosion resistance. These exotic materials are expensive and difficult to machine, but that’s the only way to make a suppressor that will last forever. If you’re making a suppressor limited to single shot, centerfire application, you can get by with carbon steel. As soon as you start putting full automatic fire through them, the carbon steel will just melt and go away really quick. I’m not going to fuss with titanium, personally. I think it’s overrated. Yes, it’s strong and light weight, but it can be difficult to machine and I don’t see an advantage to use it for anything I’m building at this time. I have done some research into alternative, nonmetallic materials, such as composites, which hold promise for low-pressure rounds. These would not be good for high-pressure rounds whereas ceramics might succeed. These materials would require serious research and development and would be costly to analyze.

SAR: Do you have a preference for threading versus welding?

Doug: Low-pressure cans can be threaded, but anything that is high pressure should be welded in some form or another, such as tig welding. For assembly purposes, threading often holds it together better with welding used to finish it off and give it added strength.

SAR: How do you think the Internet has affected the firearms industry?

Doug: It’s actually a cheap way to advertise and it’s a good way to learn. I don’t think I would have learned anything useful about suppressors without the Internet. I’m not sure I’d even be doing this without the Internet. One disadvantage, particularly in the gun culture, is that not everyone is connected or Internet savvy. If you rely solely on the Internet, you are missing sixty to seventy percent of the potential market.

SAR: What did you mean when you said that you might not even be doing this without the Internet?

Doug: I don’t think I would have gotten the right contacts or met the right people in this business without the Internet. I would have probably been limited to just people I met here in Arizona. Now, I have contact with Dr. Phil Dater of Gemtech, Joe Gaddini of SWR, both of whom have been very encouraging, even though they are competitors. Tom Hoel, who, like you, writes for Small Arms Review, has given me ideas and direction over the years. There are a couple people who have helped me that wish to remain anonymous who are also in the suppressor industry. I came in contact with all of these people through the Internet.

SAR: What have you learned as a result of your Internet contacts?

Doug: One of the main things has to do with proper barrel porting for suppressors. A lot of manufacturers port their bullet velocities down so low to achieve their suppression, that it won’t cycle most types of ammunition. The bullet is coming out at 700 to 850 feet per second using high velocity ammo, and to me that is pointless. You might as well throw a rock at something, particularly when we are talking about a 38 grain .22 pill. Part of my suppressor design was to provide as high a velocity as I could so I could deliver maximum impact to the target. This allows you to have a greater effective range while providing as good or better suppression than anything else out there, and with very good accuracy. To me, shooting a gun is more than just shooting the dirt at your feet. I’m trying to hit something out at twenty, fifty, seventy-five, or one hundred twenty-five yards. With our guns, I can do that. I can put a drink can out at seventy-five yards and hit it ten out of ten times with one of my Mark 2 pistols from a bench rest. To me, making a gun that works is more important than making a mediocre gun whose only claim to fame is useless flutes on the suppressor tube.

SAR: How and why did you choose the sound testing equipment you have?

Doug: I was talking with Phil Dater and he said that the only way you can really do effective research and development is to have your own meter. I was thinking I could get one from Radio Shack for about $300. Phil told me that a Radio Shack meter just wouldn’t do the job. He sent me a copy of his pamphlet about firearm sound testing, which explained that only two meters were acceptable for accurate sound level testing. These include the B&K 2209 and the Larson Davis 800-B. I started inquiring around in order to purchase one and found out they were several thousand dollars, but knew I needed one if I really wanted to be in the business. I chose the Larson Davis because it is currently in production, and it is made in the United States. If we ever need to have any work done on the meter I know we can send it up to Utah and have it repaired. Fortunately, they had a demo meter that was recently refurbished, and was able to purchase it at a substantial discount. By the time we had the meter, the quarter inch microphone, the calibrator, and a couple other accessories, there was a several thousand dollar investment that we had made. On top of that, you have your chronograph for bullet velocities. Once we had all the equipment, I was able to knock two to three to several, and even as much as a dozen, decibels off all our designs just by tinkering with different parts of the suppressor. You try this and record what you did, recording the decibels, change something else to see if it gets better or worse. Sometimes the gains are small-.2, .3, but other times they’re more. With several changes the dB reduction is significant and you have a new suppressor that’s hopefully as good or better than anything out there.

SAR: Tell us about your work with the large caliber rifles.

Doug: After working mainly with .22 weapons, I ran into some people with some Marlin Camp Carbines in 45 ACP. That really intrigued me because these guns are capable of delivering 230 grains of lead at between 750 and 800 feet per second. This performance is better for animal control and other work related items that you would use a suppressed gun for. The Ruger 77/44 was a natural because of the way it’s made and the bullet characteristics. Others have suppressed these guns but didn’t get the performance I thought they should, and their tube diameter was a little larger than I cared for. I thought we could do a better job. I really like the gun because you have an option of shooting either a supersonic .44 magnum load or a subsonic .44 special load. If you need to, you can send 240 grains out there at 1600 feet per second and do some real work. It’s a little loud with the ballistic crack, but you can download the round or shoot commercial .44 special ammo where you will be subsonic at 840 feet per second at less than 120 decibels. This is right in the suppressed .22 range. Out to 150 yards this is a very accurate shooting gun. If you want super accuracy, then hand loading is the way to go. Anywhere between 210 and 300 grain bullets can be fired at about 950 to 980 feet per second in a .44 magnum case. I designed my gun to achieve maximum practical velocity, which I believe is faster than any other current manufacturer, with as good or better accuracy and sound suppression compared to anything else on the market today, and in a smaller package.

SAR: Do you also suppress the lever action Rugers?

Doug: Yes, we’ve already suppressed a 96/22, which is a nice, compact little gun. I put iron sights on the barrel, which makes it a handy carbine. We are currently building a 96/44, which is a lever action .44, and that will be a super quiet little gun because of the way the barrel is designed. We had to put the tube a little farther forward on the barrel, and this results in two and one half inches of extra baffles, which is good for an extra three dB reduction.

SAR: Other than suppressors, what other products does your company make?

Doug: One of our original products, which we still make, is the Linkmaster Linking Machine. This is a convertible linker that is based on the M7 .50 caliber BMG linking machine available on the surplus market. We take the M7 and drill three holes in it and install an adapter bar on it and cut linking plates for any type of metallic machine gun link. These include 30/06 1919 BMG links, .308 Israeli BMG links, HK metal belts, MG 34 metal belts, .223 links, M60 M13 links, Vickers and Maxim cloth belts, as well as others. The linker, although modified is still perfectly good for the original .50 caliber links as well. If you have your own M7, you can send it to us for conversion and provide one plate at a cost of $200. Additional plates are $100 each. We’ve also built a couple dozen stand-up mounts for the Browning 1919 and M60 machine guns. This is an all aluminum mount which is lightweight at 24 pounds. It is easy to carry and you unfold three legs to use it. You can either order it at a sit down height or stand up height. You stake the mount to the ground, lay an ammo can into the holder, mount the machine gun, and fire it without having to lay on the ground or dirt any more. Prices for these mounts range from $440 to $600 depending on the options you choose. Options include height limiter adjustments and recoil limiters. You have 360 degrees of swing and up to 80 degrees of vertical traverse.

One specialized tool we manufacture is for the Thompson machine gun. It is a pivot plate removal tool which allows you to move the pivot plate spring fingers on the right side of the lower receiver out of the way to release the safety and selector levers. This is necessary to disassemble the lower. The tool is nonmetal, very strong and eliminates scratching the lower, which usually happens when using a screwdriver. The cost is $20 delivered. It will work on any version of the Thompson’s, including both semi and full automatic versions.

SAR: Doug, what is in the future for your company?

Doug: I have plans for finishing up the 9mm suppressor, which we just put together and we tested yesterday in the desert for the first time. It worked really well for a first time design. I would like to get another four or five dB reduction from this can, and next we will start working on a .223 can because I need one for my gun. I’ll build it for myself first, and then work on a prototype to the point where it’s hopefully as good or better than anything out there, and then that will come to market.

SAR: What did you think of our testing results?

Doug: Testing in the desert at 108 degrees is not the optimal place to get the lowest readings. Location and temperature make a big difference. For example, I went up to the mountains recently where it is much cooler and did a couple tests on .22’s. I used a MkII and the 10/22. I ran a string at 7AM when the temp was about 62-65 degrees, and again at noon when the temp was 83-85 degrees. I followed with a third string at 12:30, after the guns and ammo were laying in the sun for about 20 minutes. The 7AM MkII string was about 1.4 db quieter than the noon test (which was lower by another 1.5 db than our hot desert tests). Letting the guns and ammo sit in the sun raised the db level another .8-1.0 db. I suspect that is why we were getting such wild swings, bullet to bullet, the second day. Some of the ammo was in the shade, and some was in the sun, and almost too hot to touch.

The 10/22 was more pronounced having about 2.6 db difference between the 7Am test and noon tests (113.1 db with hi-vel at 7 and 115.7 at noon). If this is linear, I count 2.9-3.9 db difference between 62 degrees F and about 108 degrees F, at least with .22’s. It is also possible extreme temperatures may affect either the meter, or microphone, speeding up the rise time and skewing the results.

As a side note, a few years ago, I went shooting in July, and made the mistake of leaving my .223 ammo in the sun, about every third round ruptured the case, and blew the floor plate out of my M16 mag, leading me to suspect that when ammo is too hot to touch, chamber pressure rises excessively during firing.

SAR: Doug, thanks for giving SAR a chance to check out some of your suppressed weapons and sharing your background with our readers.

Doug: You’re quite welcome!

PART TWO:SOUND METER TESTING RESULTS

The sound testing equipment was provided by SRT. The procedures used follow the specific testing protocol outlined in Phil Dater’s Sound Measurements pamphlet published by ATI Press. A Larson Davis 800-B Sound Pressure Meter, set on “A” weighting and peak hold was used with a 1/4-inch condenser microphone. The meter was calibrated using a calibrator traceable to a primary standard per the National Institute of Standards and Technology prior to the tests. The microphone was placed one meter away from the front of the suppressor or muzzle. The microphone was pointed straight up oriented at a 90-degree angle from the bullet flight path. The weapons were fired 1.6 meters high over the desert floor. Velocity data was obtained using an Oehler Model 35P chronograph with sky screens set 24 inches apart and the start screen eight feet from the muzzle. These are the same procedures I have followed hundreds of times shooting for SAR at the Suppressor Trials.

The ammunition used is all commercially available and contact data for manufacturers of the subsonic ammunition is provided at the end of this article. Ten shot strings were recorded for each weapon and the average reading obtained is provided in the tables.

The large bore suppressed rifles were the most impressive weapons fired during my visit. The Marlin Camp Carbine .45 and the Ruger 77/44 have always been favorite weapons of mine and Doug’s suppressed versions are the quietest ones I have ever encountered. Both of these weapons shoot factory ball ammo flawlessly and deliver a big punch. When you are able to fire 230-240 grains of lead downrange at 800 feet per second and keep the sound signature to 120 decibels, this is quite impressive. Although we didn’t perform any standardized accuracy testing, each weapon was able to pick off small rocks at between 40 and 80 yards consistently.

Doug’s Soundmaster integral Ruger .22 Mark 2 pistol is one of the best available on the market today. I purchased one a couple years ago which has been upgraded to the latest baffle stack. Doug is correct when he states that his sound equipment allows him to make continuous incremental improvements to his products. This pistol’s sound reduction has improved close to ten decibels with the latest upgrade. The pistol cycles with subsonic and standard velocity ammunition and delivers accurate and consistant groupings.

The new 9MM muzzle can is an excellent suppressor delivering a 26 decibel reduction dry and a 37.5 decibel reduction wet. What is amazing with this suppressor is the water retention when fired wet. Even in the desert and with rapid firing, the sound reduction degraded very slowly allowing 3-4 magazines to be fired before the sound signature reduction fell out of the 30 dB range. Doug states that he should be able to greatly improve on this initial design and based on his previous efforts, I believe him.

This article was written to share the history of SRT with our readers and to illustrate how the SRT line of suppressors performs. The accompanying charts provide detailed information for the testing of each suppressor. Through this testing it can be seen that the SRT line achieves some of the highest suppression levels available on the market today. For an in-depth evaluation of other manufacturers offerings, purchase the SAR Suppressor Trials book which is being published in the near future.

Contact Information for Doug Melton: SRT Arms Div., D.H. Melton Co., Inc. 1739 E.Broadway Road, #1-161 Tempe, AZ 85282 Phone (480) 967-6218 E-mail: nac15@sprintmail.com Webpage: www.srtarms.com Contact Information for Subsonic Ammunition: A-Zone Ammunition 1340 Deer path Drive Osteen, FL 32764 Phone: (407) 330-7768 E-mail: sandrodiaz@mindspring.com Webpage: www.a-zoneammo.com

By Matt Smith

This interview was conducted with Jeff Rankin, Director of Contracts, Sales and Marketing; Sal Fanelli, Technical Sales Manager; and Bill Forsen, Director of Law Enforcement  for FNMI of Columbia, SC.

SAR: Tell us about how your company is structured.

Jeff: FNMI is a wholly owned subsidiary of FN Herstal in Leige, Belgium. FNMI was incorporated in 1978 in Delaware, and is located in Columbia, South Carolina. The family in the United States, under the FN Herstal name, includes Browning USA and US Repeating Arms, also known as Winchester Rifles and Shotguns.

SAR: Why did you locate your plant in Columbia, South Carolina?

Sal: In 1981, the plant was put there to manufacture the M240 coaxial machinegun for the M1 tank. The initial contract was for 16,417 weapons, plus a 100% add-on option for a total of over 32,000 weapons. Although the initial contract has expired, we are still building the basic version of the M240 today.

Jeff: The Army has been the primary customer, along with some Marine Corp sales over the twenty year M240 production history.

SAR: What came next?

Jeff: In 1987, we began making other US Military products, including bomb racks for the Navy, M16A1 and A2 barrels, and M61A1 entrance hardware.

Sal: In 1988, we submitted proposals for the M249 machinegun, the M16A2 rifle, and the MK19 40mm grenade launcher.

SAR: Who was manufacturing the M16 at that time?

Sal: The M16A2’s were being made by Colt. The Army needed an additional 320,000 and decided to competitively procure them. We bid on it, and in 1988 we were awarded the contract. We are still manufacturing the M16A2’s, with the three round burst selector. From time to time, we also manufacture the M16A3, which is the full auto version of the M16.

SAR: Who was manufacturing the M249?

Sal: Our parent company, FN Herstal in Belgium, had a contract for 10,000 M249’s for the Army. The rest of the production, after the initial 10,000, had to be produced in the United States by law. We produced over 30,000 on that contract.

SAR: What happened with the MK19?

Jeff: This was before my time, but I am told that we had won all three of the contracts we bid on, including the Mark 19, within twenty-four hours. At that time, the company had to make a decision, because in reality, the company couldn’t perform all the work with the facility that it had. The company elected to select the M249 and the M16A2 for production. FN asked to have their name withdrawn from the MK19 competition. This allowed Saco Defense to win the contract. Up to this point, the MK19 had been produced in limited numbers by the Navy in Louisville, KY.

SAR: What impact did the new contracts have on your facility?

Sal: Once we had both of those contracts, we added on office space to the existing building and more range capability. We also leased another 30,000 square foot building nearby that became FNMI-2. All of the raw materials and vender parts came in through this building. Only after the parts were inspected and approved by our quality assurance personnel and then by the Government, were they sent to the main factory. This prevented nonconforming material from entering our production lines.

SAR: Tell us about your range facilities.

Sal: Originally, the factory had one 100 meter range for accuracy testing and one short range for reliability and function testing. Once the new contracts were received, we put in two more 100 meter ranges plus another range for function testing. Each of the long ranges had two distinct shooting positions and the short range had three bays inside of it. All the ranges are inside. We have no external ranges.

SAR: What is a typical test firing sequence?

Jeff: It varies from product to product. As an example, the M249 will go through a function check, rate of fire check, targeting and accuracy, then it’s shot for belt pull to insure the working components are strong enough to pull the belt through the gun. The final check on the M249 is a check with the 30 round magazine. For the M240, it goes through accuracy, targeting, rate of fire, and belt pull. Weapons will see anywhere from a minimum of approximately 126 rounds to a maximum of 156 rounds. Everything is fired from a hard stand mount where an operator pulls the trigger and required data is recorded by computers and gauges.

SAR: What happens if you have a problem with a weapon during test firing?

Sal: If a gun fails one of the performance criteria, that gun is set aside, and is allowed to be repaired. Once a month, a Government representative will come in and randomly select ten guns from the lot. Those ten guns are subject to interchange, where they will completely disassemble the guns, the components are mixed up, and the guns have to be put back together. FNMI personnel perform the work under Government supervision. The guns are disassembled down to depot level. If a part is not interchangeable, we have to discover why and the lot is subject to rejection. If, during the reassembly, we find out that it’s due to a defective part, we have to go back through the entire lot to determine if there are any more defective parts in the lot. If we find out that it won’t go back together due to an operator damaging a part, this will not affect the lot.

SAR: Are all parts manufactured in house?

Jeff: It varies from product to product. We make the key components for each of our products. For example, on the M16, we definitely make the lower receiver and have made the upper as well. We also make the bolt, barrel, front sight, extractor, and other parts, depending on production and delivery schedules. Smaller parts like springs, pins, and plastic components are purchased from venders who we have qualified. We make all the receivers from scratch for the M240 and the M249. More parts are made for the M240 than for the M249. We make more parts for the M249 than we do for the M16 which is a true combination of purchase and manufacturing.

SAR: What ammunition do you use when you test fire?

Sal: All of the ammunition is government furnished and we have to show that our guns function with this ammunition. We typically receive lots of about 100,000 rounds, which will last for a couple months of test firing. The Government then sends another lot and this turnover assures our guns work with a variety of lots of ammunition.

SAR: What weapons are currently in production?

Jeff: The M16A2 is currently in production at a rate of 1500 per month, under contract until May of 2002. We have the M240B in production at a rate of 175 weapons per month through June of 2002. The M249 is in production on a yearly basis at a rate of 250 per month. That contract will be complete in March of 2001.

Sal: The M240B is the new machinegun for the U. S. Army. The basic M240 tank version has a minimum number of parts and is designed to shoot inside a tank. The new M240B is designed as an infantry gun, with a bipod, buttstock, a full-length trigger, and barrel-changing handle.

SAR: Is the M240 being built to replace the M60?

Sal: Yes, within the Army, in every place that we know of, the M240 has replaced the M60. In the Navy, M60s are still being used on some boats, but they are trying to get funding to replace all of the M60s. Within the Air Force helicopter community, their M60s have been replaced with the M240D, the spade-grip version. The Air Force ground forces are scheduled to receive the M240s to replace the M60s within the next two years.

SAR: Are you exporting any of these weapons?

Jeff: We have a few foreign military sales (FMS) cases every now and then. Currently, in the year 2000, we will build one FMS case for the M240 coax version for a foreign customer through the US Army. The customer of the final product is blind to us right now. All of our other weapons are built for and shipped to the US military.

SAR: Has the military had many problems with your products?

Jeff: No, as a matter of fact in 1998 FNMI was awarded the U. S. Army Materiel Command CP Squared Award in the Contractor Performance Certification Program. To my knowledge, we are the only one in the small arms industry that has this award. There have only been seventeen recipients in the entire defense industry. Records from the military testing of our weapons are excellent. For example, on the M240B, 83,000 rounds were fired without a mission failure. The reason they stopped at 83,000 was that their test was done. We don’t know how much more the gun could have operated and these numbers are hard to believe, but they are U. S. numbers.

SAR: Do you make any products for the Special Operations Command?

Sal: SOCOM is looking for a lightweight 5.56 machinegun. Testing started recently on our lightweight version of the M249, and it will probably be a couple months before we will know the outcome of the Navy’s testing.

Jeff: We call our version the M249 SPW (Special Purpose Weapon). It includes characteristics which lighten the weapon while maintaining the reliability and durability of the weapon.

SAR: Tell us about your facility.

Jeff: The facility itself is 140,000 square feet. This includes the manufacturing area with state of the art CNC machining equipment as well as conventional equipment. We do our own in-house heat treating and surface finishes. The finishes include hard chroming of components and black phosphate on exterior surfaces. We have our own tool room to maintain tools and cutters, which can also be used as a model shop to manufacture a new bracket or item that we need to install either a weapon or a mount on a vehicle. We have an external bunker that is divided into two sections that house the government-furnished ammo. The commercial ammo for non-government testing is in a separate bunker. We currently have about 350 employees with the manufacturing areas working ten-hour shifts Monday through Thursday and the administrative staff and offices working five days a week. FNMI is a full house shop with our own engineering department where we do independent research and development on our products.

SAR: What role does the BATF play at your facility?

Sal: The BATF has a role with the various machineguns that we have in the sales and marketing group that we use for demonstrations. We are not allowed to use Government guns with Government serial numbers on them for demonstrations. We manufacture special machineguns with commercial serial numbers for demonstrations, and BATF controls those. Weapons that go to non-DOD customers such as the Coast Guard, the Department of Energy and police agencies have registration through the BATF.

SAR: What weapons do the Coast Guard and Department of Energy purchase?

Jeff: The DOE has selected the M249 and the M240B as their weapons of choice for machineguns for security at nuclear sites and purchase these from us. The Coast Guard uses the M240 family of weapons including the ground version and the airframe version for their boats and helicopters.

SAR: Do you sell many military weapons to law enforcement?

Jeff: Police departments can own military weapons. Some departments have purchased M249’s or at least had demonstrations of the weapons for evaluation. As far as the M16’s, we are restricted by the license between Colt and the U. S. Government and our contract to manufacturing these weapons solely for the U. S. military. We do not sell any M16’s or M16 related parts to anyone unless they are on the contract.

SAR: Tell us about your law enforcement division.

Sal: FNMI, with guidance from FN Herstal, started up the law enforcement division. There are certain products within the company that fit into law enforcement needs. For example, since FN owns Browning and Winchester, they tapped the resources from those two organizations for rifles and shotguns. Browning USA is headquartered in Morgan, Utah. Winchester/U.S. Repeating Arms is located in New Haven, Connecticut. Bill Forsen heads up our law enforcement division. (At this point, Bill Forsen joins in the interview).

SAR: Tell us about your law enforcement products.

Bill: The flagships of our division are the P90 machinegun and the Five-Seven polymer pistol for the law enforcement market. In addition is the polymer framed Model Forty-Nine Pistol. The reason it is named Forty-Nine is because it is available in both .40 caliber and 9 mm. As you can see, the “FN” is prominent in the names of each pistol. The Forty-Nine is available to both law enforcement and commercial sales and is made here in South Carolina. This pistol has two unique features. First, there is no spring tension on the striker until you pull the trigger so it is very safe. It is a true double action. Second, the patented rail system is extended and modular instead of molded in. Worn or cracked rails can be replaced without scrapping the frame. FN Herstal produces a double action version of the Browning High Power pistol which we will be bringing into the country to sell under the FN brand. There is also a possibility that we may begin marketing the single action version of the High Power in the future.

We are planning on introducing a new shotgun and precision rifle, in conjunction with U. S. Repeating Arms, for sale to law enforcement under the FN banner. The shotgun will be pump action, available in 18 or 14-inch versions, with screw-in chokes with improved cylinder and modified tubes. The interchangeable chokes will allow a department to fine-tune the shotgun for use with full power or reduced recoil shells. All steel components on the guns will be phosphate treated instead of the normal bluing. The receivers will come drilled and tapped for optics or ghost ring sights. The stock has been shortened to a thirteen and a half inches to compensate for body armor. The FN Special Police Rifle will be similar to the pre-64 Model 70 and will include the controlled round feed extractor and three-position safety which will allow the bolt to be opened in the safe condition. A detachable box magazine will be used and the chamber and bore will be chrome plated to extend barrel life and reduce cleaning intervals. An HS Precision bedded stock will support the barreled action.

SAR: How did the P90 submachinegun come to be?

Sal: FN did a survey of military services in several countries. The survey revealed that only 10% of the military personnel were actually out there fighting, while the rest were support troops. These others include the truck drivers, cooks, radio operators, and logistics types. If these soldiers got involved in military action, the fighting would be very close, at ranges of less than 50 meters. For them, having a long assault rifle or complicated weapon didn’t make sense. At the same time, NATO was predicting all enemy infantry would soon be wearing some level of soft body armor. NATO was considering replacing 9mm weapons because they were no longer lethal on the battlefield. FN took these two concepts, put them together, and then developed the ammunition and the weapon at the same time. The result was the P90 with the 5.7mm X 28mm round called the SS190. This round can penetrate body armor out to 200 meters in the P90 and 150 meters in the Five-Seven pistol. The purpose of this system was to replace aging handguns and submachineguns shooting 9mm and other handgun calibers. The P90 has been adopted by 19 countries around the world. This means they have evaluated them and purchased a significant quantity, which are in use today either in the military, law enforcement, dignitary protection, or presidential security and protection role.

SAR: Who are some of the countries that have adopted the P90?

Sal: It is in service with several units in France, Belgium and Portugal. There are many more countries that are still evaluating the P90 for potential use.

SAR: What is involved in transferring a P90 to a law enforcement agency?

Bill: First of all, the guns and ammunition must be imported on a BATF Form 6 and placed in a customs bonded warehouse. We are currently using a warehouse in Atlanta, but we plan to locate our own bonded warehouse here in the near future. The second step of this process is to have the items released from the bonded warehouse on another Form 6 when a department wants to make a purchase. Both of these steps require dealing with the BATF Imports Branch. Next, the weapon must be registered with the NFA Branch and later transferred to the agency. These two branches of the BATF do not have a whole lot to do with each other routinely as they have different responsibilities.

SAR: Tell us about your involvement with the National Defense Industrial Association.

Sal: Within FN, we feel that NDIA, in particular the small arms division, is very important to us. It allows us contact with government, academia, and other small arms companies. It provides an avenue for us to get out to many people at one time to talk about new products, what we’re developing, what we’re looking at, and whatever information we want to release that we think others need to know. The NDIA also allows for great teaming. For example, with the P90, when we knew we needed to have a suppressor, it gave us the opportunity to meet some people who did suppressor work. It also gives us the opportunity to work closely with government folks so that we really understand exactly what they are looking for. What’s on paper in black and white can easily be misunderstood, so that’s why it’s important for us to have face-to-face contact and meetings with them at NDIA events.

Years ago, NDIA was looking for corporate sponsorship to help the organization to grow. I checked with the FN executive staff for my participation, and they agreed. FNMI agreed to send me once or twice a year to steering committee meetings. At one of these meetings several years ago, I was asked to be the session chairman for the firepower division. Again, I checked with management, told them this would mean more involvement, and they agreed. This means that as session chairman, I have the task every year to locate a small arms firing range that can be used for demonstrations. I work with the local range people to make sure that we have everything we need, pass information back and forth to the various companies that want to demonstrate their products, organize it, choreograph it to ensure that it goes off as smoothly as possible. These demonstrations give the participants great exposure to other companies, the media, and all DOD personnel for their products.

SAR: Where’s the small arms symposium being held this year?

Sal: It’s going to be held in Indianapolis, Indiana with the firepower demo at Camp Atterbury, which is one half hour away. The meeting is scheduled for August 28-31, 2000.

SAR: What are some of the memorable moments from the past few demos?

Sal: The most memorable part from Reno three years ago was when the Navy showed up with their GAU-18 on the platform and shot at that vehicle. Two years ago, at Fort Benning, the most memorable moment there was the deer coming across the range along with the Navy showing off their Fast Attack Vehicle with all the various weapons and the quick conversion from one configuration to another. Last year, in New Jersey, the highlight was when J.D. Jones shot his .50 caliber pistol at a tank 800 meters away and hit it. There have been a lot of memorable things that have happened, and I could go on for hours with these stories. Someone always goes above and beyond the call of duty to have a great demo. HK, Knight’s Armament, the U. S. Navy and many others put on fantastic demonstrations. I am sure that this year will be exciting as well.

SAR: Thanks for sharing your time and thought with our readers.

Jeff/Sal/Bill: You’re welcome.

FN Manufacturing, Inc.
797 Clemson Road
P.O. Box 24257
Columbia, SC 29224
PH (803) 736-0522
Fax (803) 736-9949
Website: www.fnmfg.com

National Defense Industrial Association
2111 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 400
Arlington, VA 22201-3061
PH (703)522-1820
FAX (703)522-1885
Website: www.ndia.org