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		<title>SAR Visits GEMTECH</title>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2016 20:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Gemtech&#8217;s versatile &#8220;One&#8221; centerfire rifle suppressor and their G-Core GM-9, 9mm Parabellum suppressor. (Photo courtesy of Gemtech) By Frank Iannamico Recently, SAR had the unique opportunity to spend a few days at Gemtech’s research and development facility near Boise, Idaho. Gemtech is one of the oldest firearm suppressor manufacturers in the U.S. still doing business. [&#8230;]]]></description>
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<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size">Gemtech&#8217;s versatile &#8220;One&#8221; centerfire rifle suppressor and their G-Core GM-9, 9mm Parabellum suppressor. <em>(Photo courtesy of Gemtech)</em></p>



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<p>By Frank Iannamico</p>



<p>Recently, SAR had the unique opportunity to spend a few days at Gemtech’s research and development facility near Boise, Idaho.</p>



<p>Gemtech is one of the oldest firearm suppressor manufacturers in the U.S. still doing business. Dr. Phil Dater, one of the founders of Gemtech, has been experimenting with suppressors since 1976. His first experience was with a Ruger MKI integrally suppressed .22 caliber pistol manufactured by the Military Armament Corporation, then one of the few U.S. companies involved in the suppressor business. He soon discovered that the Ruger suppressor’s performance gradually deteriorated as shots were fired through it, and became virtually ineffective after firing a brick of .22 cartridges. A call was placed to the MAC factory in Georgia. They explained that the Ruger pistol suppressor was specifically designed for military operations with a life expectancy of approximately 200 rounds, after which the non-serviceable suppressed pistols were usually discarded. After disassembling the Ruger suppressor, and studying its construction, Dr. Dater felt that he could improve upon their performance and thus a lifelong quest began.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="515" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/001-302.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-23633" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/001-302.jpg 515w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/001-302-221x300.jpg 221w" sizes="(max-width: 515px) 100vw, 515px" /><figcaption>Circa 1980, a young Dr. Phil Dater and the suppressed MK I Ruger pistol that started a lifelong quest to improve suppressor performance.</figcaption></figure></div>



<p>During 1978, Dr. Dater began manufacturing sound suppressors of his own design doing business as the Automatic Weapons Company in New Mexico. After relocating to Idaho, Dr. Dater founded Gemtech in 1993 along with Mark Weiss and Jim Ryan.</p>



<p>Today, Gemtech has grown into one of the largest manufacturers of sound suppressors in the U.S. In addition to the commercial civilian market, the company has many domestic and foreign government and military contracts. Most of Gemtech’s products meet or exceed specifications established by the British Ministry of Defence and the U.S. military. Additionally, Gemtech is the only suppressor manufacturer currently 9001 ISO certified.</p>



<p>First on the agenda was a tour through the research and development building where we were introduced to many of the people of Gemtech. In the rear of the facility, behind the offices, is a well-equipped shop where most prototypes are built and upgrades on customer’s suppressors are performed. The company’s barrel threading service is also done here. The production suppressor tubes and internal components are manufactured at Gemtech’s plant in Michigan.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-gallery columns-3 is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex"><ul class="blocks-gallery-grid"><li class="blocks-gallery-item"><figure><img decoding="async" width="700" height="465" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/002-304.jpg" alt="" data-id="23634" data-full-url="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/002-304.jpg" data-link="https://smallarmsreview.com/?attachment_id=23634#main" class="wp-image-23634" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/002-304.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/002-304-300x199.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/002-304-600x399.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /></figure></li><li class="blocks-gallery-item"><figure><img decoding="async" width="700" height="465" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/003-299.jpg" alt="" data-id="23635" data-full-url="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/003-299.jpg" data-link="https://smallarmsreview.com/?attachment_id=23635#main" class="wp-image-23635" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/003-299.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/003-299-300x199.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/003-299-600x399.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /></figure></li><li class="blocks-gallery-item"><figure><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="465" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/004-286.jpg" alt="" data-id="23636" data-full-url="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/004-286.jpg" data-link="https://smallarmsreview.com/?attachment_id=23636#main" class="wp-image-23636" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/004-286.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/004-286-300x199.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/004-286-600x399.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /></figure></li><li class="blocks-gallery-item"><figure><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="467" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/005-258.jpg" alt="" data-id="23637" data-full-url="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/005-258.jpg" data-link="https://smallarmsreview.com/?attachment_id=23637#main" class="wp-image-23637" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/005-258.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/005-258-300x200.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/005-258-600x400.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /></figure></li></ul><figcaption class="blocks-gallery-caption"><strong>Top Left:</strong> Laser engraving a production suppressor tube. <strong>Top Center:</strong> Just a few of the weapons in Gemtech&#8217;s vault used for evaluating their products. <strong>Top Right:</strong> The machine shop where prototype suppressors are built and customer&#8217;s suppressors are upgraded or serviced. <strong>Bottom:</strong> Gemtech&#8217;s state of the art manufacturing facility in Michigan.</figcaption></figure>



<p>The research and development team consists of several engineers and designers, well versed in suppressor design, and all of them are dedicated “gun guys”. The innovative team continually strives to develop new products that exceed the customers’ expectations for both sound reduction and durability. The task is accomplished by comprehensive range and laboratory testing using the best equipment available.</p>



<p>The next stop was the shipping department. In this building was an impressive array of suppressors being packaged and shipped to the customers. Stacked on shelves were adapters, muzzle brakes, flash hiders and accessories. On the floor were several pallets of Gemtech subsonic ammunition. For those residing in states that prohibit their citizens from owning suppressors, there are non-functioning display suppressors that are laser marked with the Gemtech logo and look identical to the real thing. The faux suppressors are very popular with the Airsoft “gun” enthusiasts.</p>



<p>The following day a trip to the firing range was planned with lots of ammunition and machine guns. Eye protection was mandatory, ear protection was not, and as it turned out was not needed. Some interesting weapons were fired; all fitted with production Gemtech suppressors along with a few new prototype designs. First up was an M240/MAG58 a 7.62 NATO caliber belt fed machine gun manufactured by Ohio Ordnance, The M240 was fired with the new Gemtech GPMG-762 suppressor, an extreme-duty, full-auto rated unit built of titanium with an inconel blast chamber. The suppressor was originally designed for the British Ministry of Defence for their 7.62 L7/MAG 58 machine guns; for military contracts a low-flash end cap is fitted. Next up was the MGA SAW, a muti-caliber capable belt-fed machine gun manufactured by the U.S. Machine Gun Armory in Salt Lake City, Utah. The SAW was chambered in 5.56mm NATO caliber, and was also fired with a Gemtech GPMG-762 suppressor.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="463" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/007-196.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-23638" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/007-196.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/007-196-300x198.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/007-196-600x397.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption>Field testing a suppressor with a sound meter, each suppressor was tested five times each to get an average reading.</figcaption></figure></div>



<p>Also demonstrated was the “One”, one of Gemtech’s Extreme Duty line of suppressors, tested and exceeding rigorous SOCOM standards. The “One” is considered hearing safe when used on designated minimum length barrels or longer. Why the somewhat peculiar name? The “One” is a suppressor that can be used on everything from a .300 Blackout carbine on up to the .300 Win Mag and everything in between. In other words it’s the “One” suppressor that you can use on virtually any centerfire rifle. The “One” is constructed of titanium and inconel with an overall length of 7.5-inches, and weighing only 16.3 ounces. It can be mounted with the two-lug quick mount or thread mount. The tube is finished in high-temperature black Cerakote.</p>



<p>One exceptionality impressive suppressor was the Gemtech Arrow test fired on a Primary Weapon Systems Mk 3 bolt action rifle chambered for the powerful .338 Lapua round. The rear half of the suppressor is made of titanium, the front 7075 aluminum alloy. The Arrow weighs only 27-ounces with an overall length of 12-inches and an outside diameter of 1.875-inches. The Arrow features a three-lug quick disconnect mount blast baffle that is threaded into the entrance chamber. The aluminum section has five baffles, which can easily be replaced by depot level military armorers.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="465" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/008-162.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-23639" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/008-162.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/008-162-300x199.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/008-162-600x399.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption>The Larson-Davis Laboratories Model 800B Integrating Sound Level Meter. The microphone is placed at the shooter&#8217;s left ear.</figcaption></figure></div>



<p>A few of the other suppressors tested were the 15-ounce titanium Dagger mounted on a Remington 700 in .308, the Dagger is also certified for use with .300 Win Mag cartridge. The Gemtech Mist integral suppressor designed for the popular Ruger 10/22 rifle was test fired, as well as a few prototype suppressors designed for the .300 Blackout round, and the new lightweight Tracker suppressor designed for hunters.</p>



<p>Also on the agenda was a demonstration of the equipment Gemtech uses for testing the decibel levels of their suppressors. Comprehensive sound testing is performed using a Larson-Davis Laboratories Model 800B Integrating Sound Level Meter with the microphone placed at the shooter’s left ear. The goal for all production is a minimum hearing safe level of 140 decibels or less. A number of rifles and pistols were tested and fired five times each to get an average reading. In addition to production suppressors, a few very interesting new prototypes were evaluated. Some very impressive db numbers were recorded during the demo.</p>



<p>In addition to sound level testing, the company also measures the pressure generated inside of the suppressor, with a Kistler Piezoelectric Pressure Sensor and Charge Meter. This is done to ensure the materials used in the manufacture of their products are sufficient to provide a wide margin of safety under the most extreme of conditions. High speed cameras and video are used to study how suppressors affect weapon components such as bolt velocity.</p>



<p>One new product developed as a direct result of the high-speed video recording is Gemtech’s new AR-15/M16 adjustable bolt carrier assembly. The product is designed to reduce bolt carrier velocity to non-suppressed levels, increasing reliability and service life of the weapon. The Gemtech bolt carrier also reduces recoil and ejection port gassing. The product is adjustable for suppressed and non-suppressed operation, without any permanent alterations to the host firearm. The bolt carriers are available in 5.56 and 7.62mm calibers.</p>



<p>Other equally innovative products include a quick-detach adapter for .22 rimfire caliber suppressors. The device is made of aluminum and stainless steel, and adds less than one-inch to the overall length of the suppressor. There are several mounts available for most popular .22 firearms.</p>



<p>Gemtech also manufactures quick-disconnect flashhiders, muzzle brakes, and a new product called the Blast Jacket. This device is designed to keep muzzle blast from distracting individuals or team members positioned on the side of the shooter. The quick-disconnect Blast Jacket, made of titanium with a stainless steel spring, focuses the expelled gases forward of the barrel. The device also eliminates the cloud of dust or debris that can be created when shooting from the prone position.&nbsp;The Blast Jacket is available in 5.56mm or 7.62mm.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="465" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/009-120.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-23640" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/009-120.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/009-120-300x199.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/009-120-600x399.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption>Testing the GM-22, G-Core suppressor on a Ruger 10/22 rifle. The Ruger rifle has been modified from semiautomatic operation to a manually operated†straight-pull toggle system made by Primary Weapon Systems. The conversion to a manually operated system eliminates the noise of the action cycling.</figcaption></figure></div>



<p>Gemtech offers their own brand of ammunition manufactured to their strict specifications. Currently available are cartridges in 300 Blackout and .22 rimfire. The subsonic ammunition is designed for optimum suppressor performance.</p>



<p>Gemtech is not a company that simply stamps out baffles and sticks them inside a tube. The company is a professional organization that puts a lot of research, testing and development into their products, and continually strives to improve their performance. One of their latest products is the Gemtech G-Core a CNC machined mono-core design, providing an extremely durable product that can be easily disassembled without “special” tools. The G-Core suppressors are currently available in 300 Blackout, 9mm Parabellum, .45 ACP, and .22 rimfire.</p>



<p>If you have an older Outback or Alpine suppressor, Gemtech offers their Improved Outback Upgrade program or I.O.U. The service includes opening up the original tube, removing the old baffles, and installing a new one-piece G-Core. After the upgrade the G-Core Outback is also rated for .22 magnum and .17 HMR calibers. The G-Core makes disassembly of the Outback for maintenance easy using only a common ¼-inch drive ratchet. The upgraded suppressor is returned to the customer in a new box with a manual, Molle pouch and G-Core patch.</p>



<p>When considering the purchase of a firearm suppressor there are many models and manufacturers to choose from. One important point that should be considered is customer service, and is the company going to still be in business to provide it in the future? Gemtech has been around for a long, long time, and continues to be an industry leader today.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V20N1 (January 2016)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>SAR GOES BACK TO MAC</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/sar-goes-back-to-mac/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2011 22:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[The origins of the original Military Armament Corporation date back to 1966, when Mitchell WerBell III, a former World War II OSS officer, decided to go into the suppressor business. WerBell called his company Sionics; an organization that specialized in counterinsurgency equipment. The name Sionics was an acronym and stood for Studies in Operational Negation [&#8230;]]]></description>
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<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/001-71.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16793" width="593" height="243" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/001-71.jpg 750w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/001-71-300x124.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/001-71-600x247.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 593px) 100vw, 593px" /><figcaption><em>The Military Armament Corporation Glover Street factory Marietta, Georgia, circa 1970. (Photo courtesy of Don Thomas)</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p><strong><em>The origins of the original Military Armament Corporation date back to 1966, when Mitchell WerBell III, a former World War II OSS officer, decided to go into the suppressor business. WerBell called his company Sionics; an organization that specialized in counterinsurgency equipment. The name Sionics was an acronym and stood for Studies in Operational Negation of Insurgency and Counter Subversion. Sionics was located on WerBell&#8217;s estate (aka The Farm) near Powder Springs, Georgia. According to Sionics, Inc. company literature, the organization was, &#8220;Established as a research and development corporation, and sales coordinator for all branches of the U.S. Military.&#8221;</em></strong></p>



<p><strong>Sionics Sound Suppressors</strong></p>



<p>The principal product of Sionics was their sound suppressors (silencers), produced exclusively for covert operations by military and CIA type organizations. The suppressors that Sionics designed and sold used a combination of baffles, spirals and wipes to suppress muzzle blast. Mitchell WerBell&#8217;s achievements in suppressor design were once regarded as the most significant advancements since Hiram Maxim&#8217;s silencers were introduced at the turn of the century. WerBell was granted two patents covering his designs. Initially, the Sionics&#8217; line consisted of suppressors for U.S. rifles, primarily the M14 and M16, as well as suppressors for pistols and submachine guns. At approximately the same time WerBell was establishing Sionics in Georgia, Gordon Ingram, living out in southern California, was attempting to interest a foreign or domestic firearms company in manufacturing his latest submachine gun design the Model 10. Despite Ingram&#8217;s best efforts, no offers were forthcoming.</p>



<p>During 1969, Mitch WerBell was planning a business trip to South Vietnam in order to demonstrate his company&#8217;s suppressors. Prior to this trip, WerBell and Ingram were unknown to each other; however, mutual friend Thomas B. Nelson knew both men and their respective talents. Upon learning of WerBell&#8217;s proposed trip, Mr. Nelson suggested that he make a stop over in Los Angeles and meet with Ingram. WerBell contacted Ingram and arranged to meet him at the VIP lounge in the Los Angeles Airport. After preliminary introductions, Ingram got down to the business at hand, explaining to WerBell his simple, easy to manufacture submachine gun design. Ingram opened up a small case that he had brought with him and showed WerBell one of his prototype .45 caliber Model 10s with suppressor. Duly impressed with Ingram&#8217;s submachine gun, WerBell struck a tentative deal with Ingram whereby he would assume possession of Ingram&#8217;s submachine guns; and take them to Vietnam for demonstration along with his Sionics suppressors.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-67.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16796" width="437" height="232"/><figcaption><em>The former MAC factory in 2010. The building is now occupied by the Cobb County Board of Education.</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>Despite all of the previous rejections of his submachine gun by the firearm&#8217;s industry, Ingram&#8217;s weapon, with its compact size and high cyclic rate, was a big hit in Vietnam. Everyone who attended the demonstrations wanted a Model 10. WerBell immediately contacted the Sionics Company officials back in Georgia instructing them to contact Gordon Ingram to begin negotiations for the rights to manufacture his submachine gun.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-59.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16800" width="437" height="283"/><figcaption><em>One of many firing demos given to VIPs and potential investors at the WerBell Farm. Sergeant Don Thomas is on the far left. (Photo courtesy of J. David Truby)</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>At the start of the negotiations with Sionics, Ingram was living in southern California with his wife Fernande, daughter Michelle and son Richard. WerBell wanted to hire Ingram as his Chief Engineer to oversee production of the M10 submachine gun. However, Ingram, who was employed as an engineer at Fairchild Hiller Aircraft, was reluctant to quit his job and move to Georgia; but under increasing pressure from WerBell, he eventually gave in and agreed to move. Leaving his family back in California, Ingram went to Georgia and for his first few months there lived in a small apartment on the WerBell property. Ingram&#8217;s small living quarters were adjacent to the machine shop then located in the basement of Mitch WerBell&#8217;s home. When his family moved to Georgia to join him, Ingram rented an apartment on Franklin Road in Marietta. Ingram signed a contractual agreement to have his Model 10 submachine gun manufactured exclusively by Sionics, Inc. As part of the agreement, all of the prototype Ingram guns were turned over to Mitch WerBell&#8217;s Sionics company.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/004-59.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16801" width="311" height="595" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/004-59.jpg 392w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/004-59-157x300.jpg 157w" sizes="(max-width: 311px) 100vw, 311px" /><figcaption><em>A young Don Thomas fires a suppressed Ingram Model 10 at the WerBell Farm range.</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>Mitchell L. WerBell III decided that the company&#8217;s current name of Sionics was not the best possible name for an organization that would be manufacturing the new Ingram weapon. The company name was then changed from Sionics to Environmental Industries. After a very brief period, WerBell III decided that the new name was inappropriate. He then began to cast about for a suitable name for his organization. A close friend and company employee by the name of Donald (Don) G. Thomas ran his own small Class Three business he called Military Armament. After much coercing, Don agreed to relinquish his trade name to WerBell.</p>



<p><strong>The Quantum Corporation</strong></p>



<p>In 1969, a group of investors from New York know as the Quantum Ordnance Bankers began investing in the Military Armament Corporation. On 11 June 1969, the Military Armament Corporation became a wholly owned subsidiary of the Quantum Ordnance Bankers, Inc. (who later changed their name to the less conspicuous Quantum Corporation) of New York. Quantum, headed by Rosser Scott Reeves III, was a holding company that was formed by a group of wealthy Wall Street financiers, to pump millions of dollars into the fledgling Military Armament Corporation. The deal would eventually prove to be an unfortunate decision for both Mitch WerBell and Gordon Ingram.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/005-52.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16803" width="437" height="283"/><figcaption><em>The test firing area in the basement of the old MAC facility circa 1971. (Photo courtesy of Don Thomas)</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p><strong>Cromwell </strong></p>



<p>Cromwell was formed to be the sales and marketing contract organization for the Military Armament Corporation; the company president was Jon Crawford. The company was established at about the same time that Quantum became involved with MAC. Quantum management believed that highly successful New York businessmen could sell more guns than the knowledgeable gun salesmen in the field. This did not prove to be the case in the weapon&#8217;s business.</p>



<p><strong>MAC Relocates</strong></p>



<p>As production of the Ingram submachine guns increased, the company was rapidly outgrowing the Powder Springs production facility that was located in a small-refurbished boathouse on the WerBell estate. During February of 1970, the company relocated into a much larger production facility at 440 Glover Street in Marietta, Georgia. The old facility on the WerBell Farm in Powder Springs was retained to conduct police sales. A firing range on the WerBell property continued to be used for testing weapons.</p>



<p><strong>A Brief History of 440 Glover Street</strong></p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/006-49.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16806" width="437" height="298" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/006-49.jpg 750w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/006-49-300x205.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/006-49-600x410.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 437px) 100vw, 437px" /><figcaption><em>Two MAC draftsmen inspect a Model 10 bolt assembly. Note the 1970s paneling on the walls. Some of the paneling was still in place in 2010. (Photo courtesy of J. David Truby)</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>Glover Street in Marietta, Georgia was originally named for the Glover Machine Works (GMW) established in 1895. One of the products the company manufactured was steam-powered locomotives and related railroad equipment. GMW had several large buildings and a rail system located directly behind their 440 Glover Street facility. Situated on the property was a foundry, machine shop and pattern room. During the late 1920s, the demand for steam-powered locomotives began to dramatically decline and GMW stopped manufacturing locomotives. However, the company continued to manufacture parts and repair locomotives for many years. The company eventually relocated and transitioned over to the manufacture of other industrial machinery. In 1995, the railroad tracks were removed, and most of the buildings razed.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/007-37.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16808" width="437" height="322" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/007-37.jpg 750w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/007-37-300x220.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/007-37-600x441.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 437px) 100vw, 437px" /><figcaption><em>Gordon Ingram in the MAC machine shop, located in the building’s basement circa 1971. (Photo courtesy of J. David Truby)</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p><strong>MAC&#8217;s Glover Street Facility</strong></p>



<p>MAC&#8217;s new Glover Street facility had a large main floor that contained the corporate offices and the production area and an upper level over the corporate offices housed the engineering department and a prototype shop. The center of the production area was bisected by an old GMW railroad track. When parts arrived from vendors they were placed in a storage area along with the parts that were made at the factory. Along side the railroad tracks were long tables, which served as an assembly line and parts were placed in bins on the tables for workers to access while assembling the submachine guns. A phosphate shop was situated adjacent to the production area for applying finish to components. Once completed, the weapons were sent to the test range for function firing. Under the factory floor was a vault area where completed weapons were stored awaiting shipment. Each weekly &#8220;lot&#8221; of weapons consisted of anywhere from thirty-five to sixty submachine guns.</p>



<p>As the company was relocating from Powder Springs to Marietta, Georgia, The company address stamped on the Ingram submachine guns made at the new facility was changed from Powder Springs, GA to Marietta, GA. The sales offices that were located in Atlanta and Washington, DC were eventually closed, with all subsequent sales being handled from the Marietta facility. During this period, both Ingram and WerBell were forced from the company by Quantum management. Ingram&#8217;s name that appeared on the Model 10 and Model 11 was replaced by the acronym MAC on subsequent production. During 1975, due to a lack of sales, numerous lawsuits and mismanagement, the original Military Armament Corporation filed for bankruptcy. MAC went out of business in 1976.</p>



<p>After the demise of the Military Armament Corporation, three former employees; Ray R. Roby, Charles T. Pitts and Richard W. Brueggeman decided to form their own company to manufacture and continue selling Ingram/MAC submachine guns. Mr. Roby had been a front office man at MAC dealing with finance and accounting and later became Vice President and Treasurer. Mr. Pitts held several mid level management positions; Mr. Brueggeman was Vice President of manufacturing. With their collective knowledge of the business, the three men obtained the exclusive rights to manufacture the Ingram M10 and M11 submachine guns under a new company they named RPB Industries, Inc. The company was officially incorporated on 9 August 1976. The letters &#8220;RPB&#8221; represented the initials of the new owners&#8217; last names. RPB Industries briefly occupied the building at 440 Glover Street in Marietta, Georgia until a new facility could be found. Eventually the company moved to 1088 Huff Road N.W. in Atlanta, Georgia.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/008-32.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16809" width="437" height="283"/><figcaption><em>Glover Machine Company ad. The Company, who manufactured steam-powered locomotives, was established at 440 Glover Street in 1895.</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>In 2010, while doing research for a new Ingram book project tentatively entitled The MAC Man, former MAC employee Donald G. Thomas and the author visited 440 Glover Street in Marietta. The building is now occupied by the Cobb County Board of Education and utilized as an annex for business and financial services. The front of the building was immediately recognizable from old photos from the 1970 MAC era. We approached the front desk and explained to the young secretary our book project, and asked if we could tour the facility. She said it wouldn&#8217;t be a problem and summoned a supervisor who offered to show us around. The gentleman told us that he didn&#8217;t know much of the building&#8217;s past, but he was aware that machine guns were once manufactured there. In a few rooms, the old 1970s paneling was still in place, but most of the offices had been updated since MAC&#8217;s departure in 1976. After seeing the office area on the main floor, we proceeded to the basement, where the manufacture and assembly of the MAC weapons was performed. The railroad tracks that once bisected the building were gone, but that part of the building was also recognizable from old photographs. While touring the basement, we encountered a fellow who told us that he remembered a little about the old &#8220;machine gun plant.&#8221; He offered to show us the area where the weapons were test-fired. The foam used for insulating the room was still present as were the holes used for the ventilation fans. The man said that he recalled finding numerous spent shell casings in the area when the building was being refurbished.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large is-resized"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/009-29.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-16810" width="437" height="283" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/009-29.jpg 750w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/009-29-300x195.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/009-29-600x390.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 437px) 100vw, 437px" /><figcaption><em>After MAC relocated from Powder Springs to Marietta, the new company address was stamped on their products. During the same time period WerBell and Ingram were forced from the company, and Ingram’s name was replaced by the acronym MAC.</em></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>The original Military Armament Corporation&#8217;s occupancy of the 440 Glover Street was quite brief, lasting little more than six years. The final activity there was the famous MAC auction in June, 1976.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V14N5 (February 2011)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>SAR AT THE WAR REMNANTS MUSEUM HO CHI MINH CITY, VIETNAM</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/sar-at-the-war-remnants-museum-ho-chi-minh-city-vietnam-2/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Apr 2002 00:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://dev.smallarmsreview.com/?p=2671</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By Michael Shyne Lead Photo: The remains of a chopper mounted Mini-Gun. Imagine entering a military museum and being greeted by a statement like this: “Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to the future generations to explain why.” Robert S. McNamara. Thus began the welcome to Vietnam’s War Remnants Museum. “Remnants” of [&#8230;]]]></description>
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<p>By <strong>Michael Shyne</strong></p>



<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Lead Photo</span>:</strong> <strong><em>The remains of a chopper mounted Mini-Gun.</em></strong><br><br><em>Imagine entering a military museum and being greeted by a statement like this: “Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to the future generations to explain why.” Robert S. McNamara.</em><br><br>Thus began the welcome to Vietnam’s War Remnants Museum. “Remnants” of war much different from the “remnants”, what remains, what is left over, which we are used to contemplating. Yet, that is the purpose for which this museum in Communist Vietnam was established, to contain what remains, to keep anti-American memories alive, to justify the actions of North Vietnam during the war and to support the Communist government of Vietnam.<br><br>SAR visited Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), Cu Chi and the Mekong. The evidence is clear; Vietnam is looking to the future. Since its Communist government’s amazing move in 1985 to convert this country’s economy to a free market economy, Vietnam is accelerating into the 21st century. A middle class is developing from its citizens’ unprecedented post-war economic opportunities. Yet, although the government’s focus is on building future international relations and a strong internal economy, memories of the war are preserved, manipulated and promoted.<br><br>Thoi Som Island on the Mekong River, once a heavily bombed Vietcong stronghold, is now a resort known for its tropical fruit. The unconquerable tunnels of Cu Chi are now accessible to the public, complete with booby trap displays, a souvenir shop and a Vietnam-era weapons live fire shooting range. But the most graphic display of a one-sided preservation of the Vietnam War encountered by this writer was the War Remnants Museum.<br><br>The museum grounds included equipment displays featuring examples of some of America’s more exotic bombs, a 15,000 pound “seismic bomb” claimed to be effective over a 3 kilometer area and a CBU-55B designed to “destroy all the oxygen within a radius of 500 meters”. U.S. light and heavy artillery were on display as well as attack-equipped T-33 and F-5 jet aircraft. Nearby, a UH1 Huey sported a somewhat cannibalized Minigun.</p>



<p>The Communist counterbalance to all of this sophisticated weaponry is a twelve foot tall portable guillotine. This is the very guillotine the Communists carted from province to province, from hamlet to hamlet, executing citizens who had shown a partiality towards the South Vietnamese or the Americans. The contradiction in technology was profound.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="473" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-57.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7996" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-57.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-57-300x203.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Several M-16s are included in this display.</em></strong></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>The Communist government’s intent of this museum is to demonstrate the brutality and senselessness of U.S. actions. Statistics were given comparing the number of tons of bombs dropped over Vietnam by the U.S., versus our similar contribution to World War II. The statistics included the number of schools, hospitals and religious buildings destroyed in North Vietnam and the comparison of the nearly 3 million Vietnamese casualties to the 58,000 American casualties.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="702" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-55.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7997" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-55.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-55-300x300.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-55-150x150.jpg 150w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Several gas guns and Grenade Launchers on display.</em></strong></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>The War Remnants Museum bore a close similarity to the many holocaust museums existing in America today. The Jewish statement “Never Again” is not unlike the Vietnamese equivalent: “In retrospect, it is not for inciting hatred, just for learning lessons from history: human beings will not tolerate such a disaster happening again, neither in Vietnam nor anywhere on our planet”.<br><br>Interior displays included poster-sized photographs of American soldiers involved in the destruction of Vietnam and its citizenry. Many of the photographs are horrendously graphic. That is the purpose of this museum: to show “America’s war abuse”. Expectedly, the other side of the coin is conspicuously absent: the equally disgusting Communist atrocities. What this museum is unintentionally displaying is Communist Vietnam’s inability to be self-critical. America’s Democracy creates a safe environment to present and debate mistakes we may have committed. But Communism has no such mirror to reflect its shames along with its pride. Vietnam’s War Remnants Museum is an unmistakable demonstration of its national shortcoming.<br><br>Today, sixty percent of Vietnam’s population is younger than twenty-five years of age! Sixty percent of the country’s population does not have personal experience in the war. Possibly for this demographic reason, the War Remnants Museum is oriented towards retaining the memory of the war and American violence against the Vietnamese. Exhibits are in both Vietnamese and English. Yet, coincidentally, during this writer’s visit to the Museum, the majority of the visitors were non-Vietnamese, primarily American and a few Europeans. Some of the Americans had a hard time digesting the graphic illustrations of the war. One photo depicted a body being thrown from a Huey a thousand feet above the ground with the caption “Refusing to answer interrogations, a man is being thrown from a flying helicopter”. A visitor’s comment this author overheard was “That’s a bald-faced distortion”. Yet the photograph was claimed to have been taken from a specific issue of Life Magazine, a fact easily documented. I saw no need to document it, having heard duplicate stories directly from Americans on the scene when such events took place. Ironically, most of the photographs appeared to have been taken by U.S. GIs or newsmen.<br><br>It is difficult for the majority of us, living a life secure and distant from the reality of human conflict, to understand the distortions of “sanity” such conflicts create. Criticism is easy, but by “walking in their shoes,” would we have acted differently?<br><br>The photo gallery was strictly a one-sided representation of the atrocities of war, showing nothing of the butchery which took place at the hands of the North Vietnamese and Vietcong. Thus, it is doubtful the sixty percent of the country’s population with no war experience, will ever see similar examples of the atrocities committed by their countrymen. They may never learn that their government’s intent is to indoctrinate them in the one-sided picture of atrocities inflicted upon their nation by the invading Americans. This may be an example of their government’s struggling attempt to counterbalance the peaceful evolution taking place in Vietnam today. Vietnam’s Communist government has much to fear, for this is an evolution from Communism to free enterprise, economic independence and eventually Democracy.</p>



<div class="wp-block-image"><figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="474" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-46.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7998" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-46.jpg 474w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-46-203x300.jpg 203w" sizes="(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px" /><figcaption><strong><em>A grim reminder.</em></strong></figcaption></figure></div>



<p>The peaceful evolution of Vietnam will take place, in part from the growing interest in establishing English as a second language. Surprisingly, one of the most popular prime time television shows is not Baywatch, the world-wide hit elsewhere on this planet, it is an English lesson!<br><br>The small arms exhibits were somewhat less propagandized, giving a good representation of the weaponry used on both sides of the war. On display were many fine small arms, including a variety of Colt M-16s, M-14s in several configurations and an interesting selection of .45 Thompsons and 9mm subguns used by our soldiers.<br><br>Grenade launchers were well represented, along with gas guns, all considered equal in this museum display. Several of the belt-fed grenade launchers appeared to be early prototypes of contemporary weaponry. But this author’s favorite was the display of miniguns and the unique feed system attached to one of the examples.<br><br>Next to the recoilless rifle in the center of the display was a single shot weapon bearing no similarity to anything with which this author is familiar. Photos are enclosed, hoping readers can identify this weapon.<br><br>Don’t worry, these small arms will be around for years, well protected from the intense monsoon humidity in Vietnam. The number of coats of varnish applied to these firearms will preserve them for posterity; hopefully, for Class 3 collectors once America’s laws are amended to again allow such imports for dedicated collectors of war history.<br><br>Propaganda was not absent in the small arms displays, though it was almost comical to a Reasonably Knowledgeable Individual (RKI). Colt and Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum revolvers were classified as “excessive”. 1918 A-2 Browning automatic rifles were referred to with disgust of their potential for overkill. Yet, displayed alongside them was the world’s foremost assault rifle, the Kalashnikov AK-47 and its Chinese counterparts, as well as the lethal belt-fed and highly mobile RPD. Conspicuously absent were examples of the feared booby traps which impaled too many American soldiers.<br><br>Possibly the envy of the display were the 4 miniguns. Yes, 4 complete miniguns, causing this author to ponder opportunities for post-86 imports!<br><br>The War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City is communist Vietnam’s one-sided representation of the atrocities of the war. Yet, who could expect otherwise. A visit to this museum is a valuable experience. Not only are the small arms and heavy equipment displays of interest and sometimes unique, but the visit reminds us of the pain and misery, of the profound sacrifice the war in Vietnam exacted from everyone involved, directly and indirectly.<br><br>The easy road is the road of blame, undoubtedly present in the minds of some of the readers of this article. It is much easier to cast blame and remain entrenched in the past, not unlike those members of our nation who are still refighting the Civil War. The much more difficult approach is that taken by many Americans and many Vietnamese. Theirs is the choice to look forward, a courageous choice in view of the suffering inflicted on all participants of battle. As one Vietnamese government official told me, “We have chosen to look forward to a new relationship between Vietnam and America”.<br><br>May we all choose to change our angle of view from looking back at the past, as former enemies, to a view of the future with a new cooperation and partnership between the United States of America and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.<br><br><em>This article appeared in part in SAR Volume 1 Number 1, but it is so poignant to the subject, that we decided to present it again, updated and revised, in our Small Arms of Vietnam issue- Dan</em></p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V5N7 (April 2002)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>SAR TOURS PAKISTAN’S TRIBAL GUN FACTORIES</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/sar-tours-pakistans-tribal-gun-factories/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://dev.smallarmsreview.com/?p=2559</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By Rob Krott In the April 2001 (Vol. 4 No. 7) issue of Small Arms Review we ran an article by Rob Krott, our Military Affairs Correspondent titled “Into the Khyber”. It was about a recent trip he made to the Pakistan / Afghanistan area detailing his visit and his experiences with the local people [&#8230;]]]></description>
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<p>By <strong>Rob Krott</strong><br><br><em>In the April 2001 (Vol. 4 No. 7) issue of Small Arms Review we ran an article by Rob Krott, our Military Affairs Correspondent titled “Into the Khyber”. It was about a recent trip he made to the Pakistan / Afghanistan area detailing his visit and his experiences with the local people and customs he encountered. Given the recent events of 09-11-01, we asked Rob to submit an additional article with some insight into the guns and the local gun industry specifically and this is his follow up.</em></p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="443" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/001-19.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7790" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/001-19.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/001-19-300x190.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Krott, in the Karkhanai Bazaar outside of Peshawar, having a bad-hair, but good-firearms day.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>The narrow point of the Khyber Pass is at Ali Masjid. Above the Ali Masjid mosque sits the Ali Masjid fort, which overlooks the entire Khyber Pass. Here the road is one way as it’s only thirty meters or so wide. Before it was widened two camels could not walk abreast. To fully appreciate the Khyber Pass you must imagine trying to escape through the pass on foot while being shot at by Pathan snipers. Testifying to the near impossibility of such a feat, is a British cemetery full of graves from the Second Afghan War of 1879. The Khyber Pass walls bear the insignia of many British regiments, such as the Royal Sussex, the Gordon Highlanders, and the South Wales Borderers, to name but a few. Mute testimony to the far-flung reaches of a vanished empire, they reminded me of the arrogance of Daniel Dravot and Peachey Carnehan in Kipling’s The Man Who Would be King. At 1,200 meters in elevation, sitting at the end of the Khyber Pass railway and just eight kilometers from Afghanistan is Landi Kotal. Formerly “contraband city” full of hash and guns for sale and the plush homes of rich smugglers hidden behind compound walls, the smuggler’s trade has now moved to the Karkhanai Bazaar near Peshawar. After Landi Kotal the road forks: left to the Afghan border and right to Khyber Rifles headquarters. Bearing left it didn’t take long before we crested the last hill at Michni checkpoint to see the border post at Torkham. Beyond that lays Afghanistan. Unless you have a special pass and an Afghan visa this is the last stop — fifty-eight kilometers from Peshawar. The Michni guards are Khyber Rifles regulars armed with .308 Paki G-3s. These and our guard’s Kalashnikov were just about the only weapons I saw which weren’t locally made.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="443" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-37.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7791" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-37.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-37-300x190.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Gun toting Afridis chat with fellow tribesman at the Khyber Pass entranceway while the rattle of gunfire is heard just up ahead.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p><strong>Cottage Industry</strong><br><br>Situated about 25 miles south of Peshawar in the middle of the NWFP on the road to Kohat is Darra Adam Khel, a small village boasting about 100 gun shops and noted for its cottage firearms industry. Darra was responsible for equipping the bulk of the Mujahideen during the early days of the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Darra Adam Khel’s sole industry is weapons manufacturing. The town’s mom-and-pop gun shops house a cottage weapons industry unparalleled any where in the world. Darra produces about 20,000 firearms a year. With the average weapon selling for $100 that’s conservatively 2 million dollars a year being injected into this little village’s economy. Other than making guns or firing guns there’s not much else to do. Oh, yeah, there’s always hand loading the empty brass.<br><br>I went to the Home and Tribal Affairs office for a travel pass. An officious and obnoxious little Punjabi told me no. A discussion followed that finished with the comment: “It (Darra) is closed and I have no reason. If you decide to close one of your states to foreigners, you may do that (in your country).” Darra is frequently “officially” closed. Especially during the periods of heightened tribal and political unrest. The bureaucrats prohibit travel to Darra by foreigners, because of the very real possibility of kidnapping — a Pathan tribal specialty (ransom is 200,000 to 300,000 rupees or about $4,500 to $6,700). So travel to Darra is seldom authorized.<br><br>Here’s how unauthorized travel to Darra usually works: after finding and paying a guide/translator and a driver you proceed to Darra. At each police checkpoint you contribute to the local police officer’s personal pension fund. Surreptitiously slipping a wad of dirty rupees to the guide/translator who then mumbles a few entreaties in Pashto while presenting this baksheesh to the policeman, leaves you free to go. On the buses which service Darra the Pushtuns carrying weapons pay a set price to these same policemen. The size of the bribe is commensurate with the type of contraband weapon — say, 50 rupees for a pistol and 100 rupees for a Kalashnikov.<br><br>There has been less demand for weapons since the withdrawal of the Soviets, but the shops of Darra and others like them still do a good business supplying the various political factions, tribal groups, and, yes, criminals which occasionally make Pakistan (especially Sind and Punjab) a dangerous place to be. Inspector Pir Iqbal and sub-Inspector Adnan Orkzal of the Frontier Police in Peshawar told me there are over 7,000 Kalashnikovs in private hands in Karachi, the capital, where ethnic and political violence had broke out anew with nearly 300 people being killed in the past few months. Guns are also run into Kashmir, the new border flashpoint between Pakistan and India.<br><br><strong>Nooristan Gun Factories</strong><br><br>While not as well known as Darra there are also gun factories in Nooristan (not to be confused with the Nuristan across the border, but just as remote). In the village of Sakhakot near the famous Buddhist ruins at Takht-e-Bahi we picked our way along the muddy street as two mangy curs fought over some scrap. Small boys ran up to tug us toward some shops. A man wearing the traditional shalwar kameez, sandals, and a pakol &#8211; the flat, rolled pancake beret peculiar to Chitral, walked by with three rifles slung over his shoulder so we knew we were in the right place.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="443" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-35.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7792" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-35.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-35-300x190.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Gun shop proprietor and the universal symbol (in Pakistan) for a gun shop.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>The gun shops of Sakhahot Malakand in the Azam Khan Market are small with the manufacturing sheds of mud-brick and tin located in the back alleys. Using standard patterns these artisans can crank out any of a dizzying array of firearms in a day on their small forges and meager collection of drill presses. A light machine gun completely made by hand would take a while, say ten days to two weeks. Also available are fragmentation grenades (do you want to trust these fuses?), anti-tank mines, small mortars, anti-aircraft guns, and heavy machine guns — mostly copies of the detritus left by the Soviet Union’s failed Afghan adventure. Weapons can also be made to order. Authentic Kalashnikovs can be had for as little as $300, but your made in Pakistan copy may be a better bargain. I mean, who wouldn’t want their very own “Special Rolex” Kalashnikov?</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="443" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-31.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7793" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-31.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-31-300x190.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Nooristan gun maker with a variety of Kalashnikov knockoffs. Weapon to the right is 8mm. Weapon hanging on wall sports Bren inspired .303 magazine. Heavy cartridges for a handmade, shoulder fired auto weapon!</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>Weapons parts and loaned tools gripped in their greasy hands, small boys scurried to and fro. Schooling is considered unnecessary for an eight year old who can already file out a Tokarev frame in his father’s gun shop. One of the gun builders was smoking hash. I lit his joint for him with my Zippo and immediately wondered what the effect might be on the weapon’s tolerances. There was an interesting and eclectic collection of hybrid weaponry here: a British Sten gun chambered for 7.62 x 39mm and fitted with a Kalashnikov magazine. A very poor man’s AK, I guess. The idea of firing it made me a little nervous. I wouldn’t want to fire one of these, especially the ones chambered for rifle cartridges. Even without knowing the psi generated in the chamber, operating a submachine gun designed for a pistol cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 1280 fps versus the Kalashnikov round’s 2330 fps is not a smart bet.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="545" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/005-27.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7795" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/005-27.jpg 545w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/005-27-234x300.jpg 234w" sizes="(max-width: 545px) 100vw, 545px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Peshawar gun shop owner displays camouflaged 8mm Kalashnikov … just what you always wanted.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>There were other variations on the Sten including double magazine equipped weapons in bizarre calibers such as .32 ACP or .30 caliber US carbine. Given the history of the area I wasn’t surprised to see so many copies of British military and sporting small arms including: Webley .32 and .38 caliber revolvers, more Webleys in any caliber imaginable, British Smith and Wesson .38 revolvers, Sten guns, and British .303 SMLEs (very popular especially with the older gentlemen who grew up with this weapon). Another good dependable bolt gun, the Mauser 98K, is also very common.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="498" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/006-19.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7796" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/006-19.jpg 498w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/006-19-213x300.jpg 213w" sizes="(max-width: 498px) 100vw, 498px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Pathan trader in Kabul with Afghan jezzail and Khyber swords. First sword from right and second jezzail from right now reprise in Krotts collection.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>While the CETME rifle or G-3 is made under license in Pakistan these weapons are too complicated for the backyard machinists to fabricate. But the Pathan gun makers copy the G-3 magazine and barrel and use them with a Mauser bolt action in .308 / 7.62 NATO to make a weird hybrid complete with knurled pistol grip, military sights, and heavy straight stock with butt plate. There were bolt action AK-style hybrids including one 8mm Kalashnikov and various bolt guns with Kalashnikov actions or parts.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="443" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/007-17.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7797" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/007-17.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/007-17-300x190.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Krott with Pathan elder (how about that beard?) in the Karkhanai Bazaar near Peshawar. Stock decoration courtesy of The World’s Most Dangerous Places.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p>There were many Tokarevs in various calibers including .32 ACP as calibers larger than this are difficult to own in other parts of Pakistan, hence the popularity of this less than adequate caliber. I handled an interesting folding stocked semi-auto pistol incorporating Broomhandle Mauser and Tokarev design features which seemed to be a popular design in all the shops. I don’t know what to call it, but I want one.<br><br>Custom orders were not a problem. You name it and these guys build it &#8230; with varying degrees of effectiveness. I was told I could order an M79 Grenade Launcher or a 9mm Luger. While I did manage to send home a muzzle loading jezail from Kabul what I really wanted was a perfect copy of a 9mm Artillery Luger with snail-drum magazine and shoulder stock holster. While the workmanship appeared good (in many cases I couldn’t tell the difference from a factory piece without a detailed examination) the quality of the materials is still in doubt. Early on guns were made from old iron railroad rails and scrap metal. Now the steel is supposedly imported from Belgium, though I think several weapons were truck springs, construction rebar, or car frames in a previous life. Factor in unsophisticated forgings, castings from scrap, and parts filed from blanks of sub-standard steels and you’ve got to wonder if these weapons will hold up under the pressures generated by modern cartridges.<br><br>But the prices are certainly attractive: a Krinkov .222 made in Pakistan costs 4500 rupees (about $100 US). In comparison an original Soviet TT-33 Tokarev pistol captured in Afghanistan sells for 10,000 rupees ($220) while the “best copy” of a Tokarev costs 3,000 rupees. That’s $67 for a semi-auto pistol. According to Peer Alasha, a gun dealer “All Kinds of Arms and Ammunition Available Here” in Sakhahot, I’d just missed some excitement by about four hours. Early that morning the MCB bank just up the street was knocked off by six men with Kalashnikovs and robbed of 6 million rupees. Hmm. Wonder where they got the guns?<br><br>I wanted to test fire a couple of the more interesting weapons, but that wasn’t going to happen. They wouldn’t let me fire a locally made rifle: “Sometimes they blow up and the pieces could hit you in the head.” That answered my questions about quality assurance. Robert Pelton of The World’s Most Dangerous Places TV show wanted to video some weapons being fired so for a little product sampling we followed Ali Khan down a narrow alley between the gun shops and across a field to a promontory overlooking a river gorge. The weapons were a locally fabricated Tokarev and an authentic Chinese AKM (Type 59). I wasn’t too excited about the choice of weapons as I’ve fired a lot of Tokarevs and countless Kalashnikovs. I wasn’t too happy about the ammunition cost either: they wanted 800 rupees ($18) for a handful of rounds.. Pelton banged away with the Chinese Kalashnikov. Next was the pistol so I stepped up to pop a few caps. “It’s a very good copy,” I was told. Ejection was poor with every other round hanging up. Every time it jammed I would execute an immediate action drill. And every time it malfunctioned Ali would reach around to grab the weapon out of my hand. He nearly got a 7.62mm pistol round through his palm. On purpose. I finally gave him an elbow and told him to just let me shoot the damn thing.<br><br>The ammo was poor quality as well (which probably had a lot to do with the ejection problems) and I could discern differences in loads of the locally manufactured ammunition via the change in sound and recoil. While ammunition was a problem in the past (gun makers fabricated their own cartridges by reloading spent casings, using melted scrap for bullets, mixing their own powder, recasting old bullets, and re-priming old primers with match heads) you can now buy “factory” loads albeit still made in Pakistan. These rounds, as demonstrated with the Tokarev, are less than dependable.<br><br><strong>Khyber Pass Guns</strong><br><br>The next day, joined by “Baba,” a white-bearded bespectacled Pathan bearing a striking resemblance to Crumb’s “Keep on Truckin’” caricature, we went out to the gun bazaar just past the Khyber Pass do not enter sign for some more “shopping.” I inspected one of the notorious .22 caliber “Stinger” pen guns which crudely resembles a ballpoint pen. A favorite of tourists and also the Paki airport police and customs inspectors who know just what to look for on the X-ray machine at the Peshawar airport. There’s also the risk of being informed upon by the seller or any of the various hangers-on who seem to follow foreigners around. It is illegal for a foreigner to purchase a weapon. The dealers know this but are more than willing to sell you a piece anyway. Outside the tribal areas Pakistan has fairly strict gun laws governing the licensing and registration of rifles and pistols. Possession of an illegal firearm and use of a firearm in the commission of a crime carry harsh penalties.<br><br>The following day we went to Baba’s village, Regi, a series of walled compounds separated by narrow streets and alleys. Machine gun posts and gun ports on cornices provide interlocking fields of fire with their neighbors, usually related by blood or marriage. The Pushtuns are famous for kidnapping, yet I could travel unmolested into some of these border villages and have tea in the family compounds under protection of malmastia, one of the tenets of Pukhtunwali.<br><br>Entering the compound of some of Baba’s kinsmen we had some tea and I met a dizzying array of cousins. Finally we all piled into some Toyotas and drove out to a nearby riverbed for some shooting. The targets were Pepsi cans set up at the bottom of the riverbank which served as an eight-foot high backstop. On top of the bank in the fields beyond were several people working while cows milled about near the top of the bank. When I pointed this out I was told not to worry, just be careful! I knew if I hit somebody with a ricochet I’d never get out of there alive. Of course I got first crack. Someone handed me an AK saying it’s zeroed for 60-70 meters. I checked the rear sights. The target was about 75 meters away. No problem. There was now a crowd of about 40 or 50 spectators, mostly men carrying weapons. It was time to earn some credibility. I’ve been in similar situations before, but never with friendlies wandering around the target area. I heard some muttering behind me and assumed some rupees were being wagered. I placed the selector on semi-automatic, chambered a round, took a good stance, checked my stock weld and sight picture, and dropping into the “rice paddy prone” (which surprised a few people) I immediately snapped off one round. BANG! and a pop can went flying into the air. There was a large collective shout and I cranked off six more rounds, keeping the pop cans dancing as everyone clapped and cheered. Baba was effusively happy, clapping me on the back as I handed back the Kalashnikov.<br><br>After some more plinking some one handed the weapon back to me and I burned off a magazine using three round bursts. The Pathans had demurred when I flicked the selector to full-auto. They tend to hose the general area of the target on full-auto and I had to prove to them that I could put all rounds on target on full-auto. Baba wanted me to burn a magazine off into the air. Something these boys occasionally do. Unfortunately what goes up must come down. I had to field strip the AK to demonstrate my proficiency as Baba was bragging I was a weapons expert.<br><br>We went back to the house for more tea. In the front room (for guests) was an oil portrait of the family patriarch, Captain Khan Bahader Abdul Qadir Khan, an officer in the British Army’s frontier force, mustachioed, turbaned, and bemedaled with sword. A very imposing figure, Captain Khan entered the military service in 1901 and retired in 1935. The assembly of about a dozen young and middle-aged men were all very proud of their grandfather. This sense of history and reverence of one’s distinguished ancestors is another admirable trait of Pathan culture.<br><br>As I was admiring the portrait one of the young men, Mohammed Ali Kalil, asked me if I liked duck hunting. Well, hell, yes! One of the cousins brought out a leather gun case. When they snapped it open there on the velvet was an immaculately preserved .12 gauge Greener double barrel E17 grade shotgun. A silver plate on the butt stock announced it as a gift commemorating the captain’s thirty-four years of service. My admiration of the shotgun and Captain Khan’s illustrious military career led to a general discussion of weaponry and soon I was being handed M-16s (Iranian arsenal stamps), an SVD, a PKM, and an RPD which all appeared as if from nowhere. I was told there were five M-16s on the compound and they were very popular with the Pathans. Some one made a joke and I was told to look up. Near the ceiling was a space all along one wall. There must have been a catwalk because behind the wall were three men laughing and smiling while brandishing weapons. I was glad I was a friend. You don’t want to be an enemy in the land of the Pathans.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="506" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/008-11.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7798" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/008-11.jpg 506w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/008-11-217x300.jpg 217w" sizes="(max-width: 506px) 100vw, 506px" /><figcaption><strong><em>Rob Krott holds a handmade Pakistani AKM. Workmanship was excellent.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p><em>SAR Military Affairs Correspondent Rob Krott has traveled extensively for the TV show The World’s Most Dangerous Places which can be seen on the Travel Channel. He hasn’t shot anything, or anybody, with his Afghan jezail.</em></p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V5N5 (February 2002)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>INTERVIEW WITH TY MELIGAN OF TL GUNS</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/interview-with-ty-meligan-of-tl-guns/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Articles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Articles by Issue]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[V5N5 (Feb 2002)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Volume 5]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[2002]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Matt Smith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SAR]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[TL Guns]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[TY Meligan]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://dev.smallarmsreview.com/?p=2556</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By Matt Smith SAR has a policy of trying to bring new Class 2 manufacturers to the attention of the readers, as well as our interviews with long time industry people. We recently had the opportunity to sit down with Ty Meligan of TL Guns and ask him a series of questions about his background [&#8230;]]]></description>
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<p>By <strong>Matt Smith</strong><br><br><em>SAR has a policy of trying to bring new Class 2 manufacturers to the attention of the readers, as well as our interviews with long time industry people. We recently had the opportunity to sit down with Ty Meligan of TL Guns and ask him a series of questions about his background and history as a Class Two Manufacturer. Ty is located in Oregon, a state that has a very high machinegun rating per capita including many other dealers and manufacturers. He has been getting a lot of attention on the Internet among the Class 3 community there, and we thought we should bring him to the attention of the SAR community.</em><br><br><strong><em>SAR: Ty, how did you get into the firearms business?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> It started about six years ago with a gentleman named Dan Tanner. I went by his gun shop one day, where he had machineguns and suppressors all over his walls. I started asking questions and discussing what I knew about them from the military. I had no idea that you could legally own this stuff, but there it was in front of me. I got to know Dan as a friend, and he eventually asked me to help run his equipment to manufacture suppressors. I told him it had been a while since I had done that, but I quickly came back up to speed on the equipment, and started manufacturing suppressors for Dan.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: What kind of technology were you using for the suppressors?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I wouldn’t really call it “Technology”. It was basically just flat baffles. I was working as a machinist manufacturing what Dan wanted. I was making .223 cans, 9mm MAC cans, integral Mark 2 cans, and screw on .22 cans. Sales were mostly to local residents, but we did have some Internet sales, as well.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: When did you become involved in the designing of suppressors?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> After I had been working for Dan a while, I approached him and asked him if I could try some of my own ideas. Dan gave me the go ahead to make the improvements that I felt were necessary to improve performance on the cans. I started by trying ideas from suppressors I had used in the military, but I knew I could improve on these designs as well.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Ty, what was your military background that exposed you to suppressors?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I was in the Army Special Forces as an 18 Bravo Weapons Sergeant. We were attached to an infantry unit at Fort Sherman in Panama. My main function was as an armorer. We captured weapons, and did documentation on what we found. Often, we found weapons with modifications to them, held together with rubber bands and paper clips. One of the most interesting weapons ever confiscated was an old M16 that was so worn it had a hole in the magazine well where you place your thumb to drop the magazine. All of the plastic had been removed and replaced with wood. Who knows how it had made its way from Viet Nam to South America. We did a lot of work with the HK MP5 SD and HK muzzle cans. This is where I was first exposed to the K baffle, and I wanted to improve upon this design. I started doing my own version of a baffle with different types of cuts, different angles, and different ways of manipulating the gas. I’ve also attacked other aspects of suppression such as how to reduce ejection port noise and reduce the overall sound signature.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="240" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-42.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7849" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-42.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/002-42-300x103.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /></figure>



<p><strong><em>SAR: How long did you work with Dan Tanner before going out on your own?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I worked with him off and on for two years, until one day when Dan told me that I was really good at this and should be doing this on my own. He complimented me on my workmanship, quality, and new designs, and encouraged me to get my own manufacturing license, which I did. I started out part time, since I had a full time job as an electrician. There was a student that was going to a local Christian college studying advertising and marketing. He asked if he could do his final report on my business, from where I started to where I am now. This included manufacturing from the raw materials to the finished cans. The first year in business, I made about 20 suppressors, which was mostly for fun. I was making good money as an electrician at the time. The second year, I made about 60 suppressors. I was out in the shop more working at night. The third year, I made nearly 100 suppressors. This was the point where I started asking myself what I really wanted to do. At about the same time, the company I was working for went out of business, which more or less made up my mind to start manufacturing full time. I did some advertising, got my web site built, and my business just took off. I think the main thing that kept my business going was that customers liked the quality, the looks, and the price.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Tell us about your shop and the equipment you’re using.</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> My shop was originally in my garage, where I had kept my two race cars. One by one, the cars were removed as I started getting equipment. I’ve got a nice lathe, a couple of milling machines, a drill press, a grinder, a solvent tank, a bead blast cabinet, a band saw, and an Iron Worker punch. I just picked up a nice Okuma CNC lathe. It has eight tool heads and a seventeen-inch swing. A new industrial park has gone in nearby, and I have moved my shop there. I have gone from a 24 X 30 shop to a 2000 square foot shop. I will also open up as a general machine shop, in addition to the firearms business. It is only about 2 miles away from my former location.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: What were the first suppressors you started manufacturing once you were out on your own?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> Integral Mark 2 pistols. At the time, many of the other suppressed Mark 2’s were full of packing material and miscellaneous parts and pieces. They were a pain to get back together. I wanted to simplify the design, and reduce the number of items in the assembly. I started by combining the baffles and spacers into one piece. My design includes an aluminum inner tube over the barrel with an end cap, the spacer and baffle assembly, the outer tube, and an end cap. I started with a setscrew to hold it all together, but found that after a couple years of use, a gap developed between the receiver and the tube. I don’t like to copy other people’s stuff, because not only is that not righteous, I like to come up with my own ideas. I decided to drill a hole in the bottom of the end cap, where you could stick the end of an Allen wrench to tighten or loosen the threaded end cap. I now thread my outer tube onto the receiver, mill a slot for the sights, which are welded from the underside of the tube, and it all makes a nice package. Some of the other guns that we suppress are the Ruger 10/22, 77/22, Buckmark .22 rifle, Marlin Papoose .22 rifle, various sub-machineguns and high power rifles. I also make a screw on .22 suppressor.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="462" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-35.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7850" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-35.jpg 462w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/004-35-198x300.jpg 198w" sizes="(max-width: 462px) 100vw, 462px" /><figcaption><strong><em>The TL Guns six-barrel .22lr M133 Minigun.</em></strong></figcaption></figure>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What type of materials do you use in your suppressors?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> On the stainless guns, everything is stainless. On the parkerized guns, the only thing that’s steel is the barrel, the outside tube, and the end cap. All the internal parts, including the baffles, are stainless. The outer tube is 4130 chrome moly, and the end cap is tool steel.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: How does the 77/22 suppressor differ from the 10/22 suppressor?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> The internal barrel for the 77/22 is 15 inches long, verses 13 inches for the 10/22. The outside tube is therefore longer by 2 inches on the 77/22. Both guns use the same baffle stack, but the 10/22 has a 16 inch tube and the 77/22 has an 18 inch tube.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Can you describe your .22 screw on suppressor?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> This can measures 1 inch by 6 inches long, and is made totally of 304 stainless. Two mounts are available for this can. The first type is a 1/2 by 28 internal thread for an external threaded barrel. The second type has a 1/2 by 28 internal thread and an 11/16 by 24 external thread to fit inside an internally threaded bull barrel. This eliminates the need for a thread protector on the bull barrel. This suppressor is designed for both rifle and pistol use.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: What other pistol suppressors do you offer?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I have a 9mm pistol suppressor that measures one inch by seven inches long, and weighs 4 and 1/2 ounces. Most of these are threaded 1/2 by 28, but I can also do a 1/2 by 32 if necessary. These suppressors are made of 7075 T8 aluminum, and will cycle on a Glock 17, some Glock 19’s, Sig P226, and all Beretta 92’s without a recoil regulator. I also have a .40 caliber pistol can, that includes a recoil regulator to insure cycling in all pistols, including Glock’s.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Have you had any problems with your cans?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I’ve only had a few cans to come back for repair. One was from a dealer in Alaska who had worn out the spring in the recoil regulator of his .40 cal pistol suppressor after firing thousands of rounds through it. Another instance was when I received back the second 10/22 rifle I had ever suppressed, from George Denkins. Back in those days, I wasn’t Parkerizing, I was moly coating. George wanted the suppressor rebuilt and parkerized. He had had his suppressor on a full auto 10/22 and shot the heck out of it. When I opened up the tube to rebuild it, I was pleased to find out that there was only a small amount of carbon, and no lead build up. I also had to recall some .223 cans that I sold. I had an idea for lightweight .223 cans using a thinner tube material than usual. I made ten of these and ended up recalling them all because with excessive firing they would heat up and bulge. Seven of the ones I received back had only been fired in semi auto and were fine. Two of them came back blown up, and one has never been sent back. I replaced all of these for free with cans made of my regular materials.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: What suppressors do you make for submachine guns?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I make an MP-5 can, using Gemtech’s three lug quick disconnect, as well as suppressors for the UMP-40 and UMP-45 with a quick disconnect that I designed. I make a combination can that can be used on both a 9mm or .30 caliber weapon. I can supply adaptors including three lug mounts, threaded adaptors for M11/9, MAC 10, Uzi, KG-9, or any other thread pattern required on the host weapon. I also make Uzi cans, as well as Smith &amp; Wesson 76 cans. One of the most interesting cans I’ve built was an integral suppressor on a Yugo 49, which is the only one that I know of in the world and is it awesome! This gun was originally 7.62 X 25mm and was never designed to be suppressed. John Nichols is the lucky owner of this weapon, which is now a 9mm. I made an adaptor so that Sten magazines can be used with this firearm. This adaptor will also allow you to use Sten magazines in a PPSH-41. I just made a new suppressor for a 5.45 X 39mm for the AK-74 Krinkov or full size rifle. It is an exact exterior copy of the Russian suppressors, which are not available in the United States. This is a complex suppressor which utilizes four different external pieces, and has a tang on the front that can be rotated to different positions for more accurate firing. I manufactured this suppressor based on a picture out of a Russian book that was scaled by Steve Hill of Spotted Dog Firearms of Arizona. The idea came from a friend of Steve’s who works for the SAS, where they have a real suppressor in their vault. I designed the internals, since there were no specifics available on the baffle stack. Another big seller is the Greasegun suppressor that I manufacture. I’ve produced over thirty of these in the last several months, as no other manufacturers seem to be making these actively right now. This can looks similar to my MAC suppressors which have the two stage look. I use an inch and 3/4 tube for one stage and then press four inches of two inch tube over the main tube to give it the two stage look. The can is ten inches by an inch and 3/4, with the two inch back piece. Anyone who wants one of these should send me a barrel and $400, and I will send you back the suppressed barrel assembly. These are extremely efficient suppressors! One of my personal achievements is an integrally suppressed 30.06 Ruger M77. It sounds like a pellet gun when you fire it. I’ve also built these in .308 on a Remington 700 rifle. I port the barrel so that the velocity of military ball ammo is reduced to 960 feet per second. These are basically one hundred yard guns, but are extremely quiet, and you don’t have to use expensive subsonic ammunition.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="600" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-40.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-7851" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-40.jpg 600w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/003-40-257x300.jpg 257w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" /><figcaption><em><strong>Ty shooting an HK UMP .45 with a TL Guns suppressor and patented quick mount.</strong></em></figcaption></figure>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What other products do you offer, other than suppressors?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I can repair just about any machinegun. Krinkov’s and M16’s are my favorites to work on. My favorite Krinkov has a six inch barrel with a K grip and my favorite M16’s have seven and 1/2 inch barrels, which all cycle like a champ. Occasionally, I have to retard the timing, and I do this by adding material to the hammer to eliminate the light strikes. Another specialty is to modify weapons into short-barreled rifles. My M96 Robinson rifle has been shortened and now has a ten-inch barrel. I’ve also started to build a semiautomatic MG-42, and I’m having to figure that one out as I go along.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Ty, I think the most impressive firearm you’ve shown me is actually your minigun. Can you tell us how this firearm came to be?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> Yes, one of my most unique projects has been manufacturing the six barreled .22 LR “Minigun”. I call it the TL-M133 Electric cannon. This was a collaboration between myself and Brian Abbot. His idea was to have a collar in the front for holding the barrels symmetrically in the front, and a collar in the back to keep everything straight. The collar in the back included skateboard bearings around this round tube to allow the barrels to rotate. I liked the concept but not the execution. I told him to let me design and build my own version of this gun. He was mainly after a certain look, while I wanted it to function properly. We bought six Butler Creek bull barrels, threading each of the barrels 1/2 by 28 on the ends with a collar going over the threads, and barrel extensions that thread over the barrels to hold the collar on. There are two more collars that go over the barrel extensions and a soup can that goes in the middle to give it the Minigun look. After the first prototype was put together, we found it to be very heavy, and weighing about fifty-six pounds. We milled down the barrels and shaved eight pounds off the original weight. We used a stainless steel shaft and some eight inch diameter aluminum tubing for the outer housing, with a flat plate of aluminum inside, and two other pieces, one coming up in the front with a high speed bearing pressed into it, and the other piece with a smaller high speed bearing pressed into that in the rear. The shaft goes through the bearings, with the front bearing holding the shaft and the rear bearing keeps it from tipping up and down. There is also a collar on the shaft to keep it from sliding out. When it was first put together, there was too much weight on the end, which made the assembly sag and bounce. To eliminate this problem, I put a bolt on the end of the shaft and a bolt on the inside. These bolts were pulling in opposite directions stretching it out, keeping the shaft straight with no wobbling in any direction. Then we took the round housing and mounted a base plate inside, which was bolted down to form the receiver with a spinning action. A cosmetic plate with holes in it is slid over the barrels to plug up the end. You turn the gun over to insert loaded Ruger 10/22 ten round magazines. There’s a pistol grip that goes on the top with a button to spin the action. It’s actually a Ford Fiesta starter motor to spin the barrels, but this does not fire them. When you pull the trigger, there is a cable that runs up to the front and pulls a firing tang back and forth. So as you pull the trigger, the tang contacts the triggers as the action spins. The BATF has classified this as a Title 1 long gun because there are six individual receivers that are still all semi auto, and are still being fired by one pull of the trigger. This is the same concept as the trigger cranks that are available to rapidly fire other semiautomatic rifles. The electric motor does not fire the gun, but rather the tang trips the trigger to fire it. You can spin it by hand, and still fire the gun or you can spin the motors and not fire it at all. A real Minigun fires because of the motor spinning the barrels, while mine does not. We currently have a provisionary approval from the BATF, but still have to take the gun to the Tech Branch in D.C. for a final classification. They wanted me to register it as a machinegun and send it to them, but I want to be standing right there in person when they evaluate the gun. I now need to find two weeks time to take the gun in person and finalize their evaluation. If anyone is interested in one, they may be purchased for $7000, and I will make the time to visit the Tech Branch.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Is it true you are involved in the binary exploding target business?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> Yes, I am helping my friend Scott Hall market binary explosives that he has developed. These are produced by SDH Manufacturing and I sell them through TL Guns. These are of extremely high quality when compared to others on the market. A starter kit is available which is comprised of two eight ounce and five two ounce targets, a funnel, mixing bowl, measuring spoon and a stir stick for mixing the two products together. SDH Manufacturing has included pre-measured activator packets for a precise mixture. Targets can also be purchased individually or by the case. We are currently looking for dealers and distributors across the country. The targets must be engaged by a .223 or larger caliber weapon to function. Individuals should check out their local laws and regulations prior to purchase.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: What’s in the future or on the drawing board for TL guns?</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> I have a dual Browning 1919 mount that I’ve recently brought out. These cost $1000. There is a base mount with an upper portion where the two guns mount, as well as two ammunition can mounts built into the assembly. My design utilizes a single trigger to fire two automatic weapons or there is a different bar that you can put a crank on for semiautomatic Brownings. I also have a quad 1919 mount in the works that is similar to the quad fifty where you sit behind the four guns to fire them simultaneously. It’s all pneumatic, the whole thing rotates 360 degrees, and the guns move up and down. I have the base plate done and I’m currently working on the mount. I will use solenoids to fire the guns while the pneumatic piston moves the gun up and down. There is a hydraulic motor with a rubber tire on it that runs on the shield to impart motion. I am also working on two shot burst cams for the M16 to retrofit three shot cams. These run $50. Another new item is an integrally suppressed upper for M11/9’s or MAC 10’s. I also offer an adapter to allow the use of an MP5 stock on the MAC’s. A Weaver rail will also be a part of the suppressed MAC uppers. Another option will be a pop up peep rear sight similar to those available for AR-15’s. Something I really would like to perfect is an American 180 upper for M11/9’s or MAC 10’s. This would allow you to fire the large .22 LR drums on your registered MAC or even a semiautomatic MAC. I have had some discussions with Val Cooper at E&amp;L Manufacturing about this project. I am working on a new .50 caliber suppressor for Jason Hinkle’s Alaskan .50 rifle. I couldn’t believe it, he sent the rifle to me wrapped in used boxer shorts. I used pliers to remove them just in case (laughs). I welcome a challenge in this business and will take on just about any project.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: Ty, it has been a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with our readers.</em></strong><br><br><strong><em>Ty:</em></strong> You’re welcome Matt.<br><br><strong>TL Guns &amp; Manufacturing<br>SDH Technologies &amp; MFG</strong><br>1298 N. Douglas Avenue</p>



<p>Cottage Grove, OR 97424</p>



<p>Phone (541) 942-8703</p>



<p>Fax (541) 942-6137</p>



<p>Website:&nbsp;<a href="http://www.tlguns.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://www.tlguns.com</a></p>



<p>E-mail: <a href="mailto:tlguns@tlguns.com">tlguns@tlguns.com</a></p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V5N5 (February 2002)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>Industry Interview: FN Manufacturing, Inc.</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/industry-interview-fn-manufacturing-inc/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[The author (right) receives instruction on the P90 submachine gun from Bill Forsen. By Matt Smith This interview was conducted with Jeff Rankin, Director of Contracts, Sales and Marketing; Sal Fanelli, Technical Sales Manager; and Bill Forsen, Director of Law Enforcement &#160;for FNMI of Columbia, SC. SAR: Tell us about how your company is structured. [&#8230;]]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size"><em>The author (right) receives instruction on the P90 submachine gun from Bill Forsen.</em></p>



<p>By Matt Smith</p>



<p>This interview was conducted with Jeff Rankin, Director of Contracts, Sales and Marketing; Sal Fanelli, Technical Sales Manager; and Bill Forsen, Director of Law Enforcement &nbsp;for FNMI of Columbia, SC.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: Tell us about how your company is structured.</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;FNMI is a wholly owned subsidiary of FN Herstal in Leige, Belgium. FNMI was incorporated in 1978 in Delaware, and is located in Columbia, South Carolina. The family in the United States, under the FN Herstal name, includes Browning USA and US Repeating Arms, also known as Winchester Rifles and Shotguns.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Why did you locate your plant in Columbia, South Carolina?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;In 1981, the plant was put there to manufacture the M240 coaxial machinegun for the M1 tank. The initial contract was for 16,417 weapons, plus a 100% add-on option for a total of over 32,000 weapons. Although the initial contract has expired, we are still building the basic version of the M240 today.</p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;The Army has been the primary customer, along with some Marine Corp sales over the twenty year M240 production history.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What came next?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;In 1987, we began making other US Military products, including bomb racks for the Navy, M16A1 and A2 barrels, and M61A1 entrance hardware.</p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;In 1988, we submitted proposals for the M249 machinegun, the M16A2 rifle, and the MK19 40mm grenade launcher.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Who was manufacturing the M16 at that time?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;The M16A2’s were being made by Colt. The Army needed an additional 320,000 and decided to competitively procure them. We bid on it, and in 1988 we were awarded the contract. We are still manufacturing the M16A2’s, with the three round burst selector. From time to time, we also manufacture the M16A3, which is the full auto version of the M16.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Who was manufacturing the M249?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;Our parent company, FN Herstal in Belgium, had a contract for 10,000 M249’s for the Army. The rest of the production, after the initial 10,000, had to be produced in the United States by law. We produced over 30,000 on that contract.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What happened with the MK19?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;This was before my time, but I am told that we had won all three of the contracts we bid on, including the Mark 19, within twenty-four hours. At that time, the company had to make a decision, because in reality, the company couldn’t perform all the work with the facility that it had. The company elected to select the M249 and the M16A2 for production. FN asked to have their name withdrawn from the MK19 competition. This allowed Saco Defense to win the contract. Up to this point, the MK19 had been produced in limited numbers by the Navy in Louisville, KY.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What impact did the new contracts have on your facility?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;Once we had both of those contracts, we added on office space to the existing building and more range capability. We also leased another 30,000 square foot building nearby that became FNMI-2. All of the raw materials and vender parts came in through this building. Only after the parts were inspected and approved by our quality assurance personnel and then by the Government, were they sent to the main factory. This prevented nonconforming material from entering our production lines.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Tell us about your range facilities.</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;Originally, the factory had one 100 meter range for accuracy testing and one short range for reliability and function testing. Once the new contracts were received, we put in two more 100 meter ranges plus another range for function testing. Each of the long ranges had two distinct shooting positions and the short range had three bays inside of it. All the ranges are inside. We have no external ranges.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: What is a typical test firing sequence?</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;It varies from product to product. As an example, the M249 will go through a function check, rate of fire check, targeting and accuracy, then it’s shot for belt pull to insure the working components are strong enough to pull the belt through the gun. The final check on the M249 is a check with the 30 round magazine. For the M240, it goes through accuracy, targeting, rate of fire, and belt pull. Weapons will see anywhere from a minimum of approximately 126 rounds to a maximum of 156 rounds. Everything is fired from a hard stand mount where an operator pulls the trigger and required data is recorded by computers and gauges.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large is-style-default"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="462" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-194.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-18549" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-194.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-194-300x198.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-194-600x396.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption>Sal Fanelli addressing the crowd at the 1999 NDIA Small Arms Firepower Demonstration in New Jersey.</figcaption></figure>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What happens if you have a problem with a weapon during test firing?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;If a gun fails one of the performance criteria, that gun is set aside, and is allowed to be repaired. Once a month, a Government representative will come in and randomly select ten guns from the lot. Those ten guns are subject to interchange, where they will completely disassemble the guns, the components are mixed up, and the guns have to be put back together. FNMI personnel perform the work under Government supervision. The guns are disassembled down to depot level. If a part is not interchangeable, we have to discover why and the lot is subject to rejection. If, during the reassembly, we find out that it’s due to a defective part, we have to go back through the entire lot to determine if there are any more defective parts in the lot. If we find out that it won’t go back together due to an operator damaging a part, this will not affect the lot.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Are all parts manufactured in house?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;It varies from product to product. We make the key components for each of our products. For example, on the M16, we definitely make the lower receiver and have made the upper as well. We also make the bolt, barrel, front sight, extractor, and other parts, depending on production and delivery schedules. Smaller parts like springs, pins, and plastic components are purchased from venders who we have qualified. We make all the receivers from scratch for the M240 and the M249. More parts are made for the M240 than for the M249. We make more parts for the M249 than we do for the M16 which is a true combination of purchase and manufacturing.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What ammunition do you use when you test fire?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;All of the ammunition is government furnished and we have to show that our guns function with this ammunition. We typically receive lots of about 100,000 rounds, which will last for a couple months of test firing. The Government then sends another lot and this turnover assures our guns work with a variety of lots of ammunition.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: What weapons are currently in production?</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;The M16A2 is currently in production at a rate of 1500 per month, under contract until May of 2002. We have the M240B in production at a rate of 175 weapons per month through June of 2002. The M249 is in production on a yearly basis at a rate of 250 per month. That contract will be complete in March of 2001.</p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;The M240B is the new machinegun for the U. S. Army. The basic M240 tank version has a minimum number of parts and is designed to shoot inside a tank. The new M240B is designed as an infantry gun, with a bipod, buttstock, a full-length trigger, and barrel-changing handle.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: Is the M240 being built to replace the M60?</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;Yes, within the Army, in every place that we know of, the M240 has replaced the M60. In the Navy, M60s are still being used on some boats, but they are trying to get funding to replace all of the M60s. Within the Air Force helicopter community, their M60s have been replaced with the M240D, the spade-grip version. The Air Force ground forces are scheduled to receive the M240s to replace the M60s within the next two years.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Are you exporting any of these weapons?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;We have a few foreign military sales (FMS) cases every now and then. Currently, in the year 2000, we will build one FMS case for the M240 coax version for a foreign customer through the US Army. The customer of the final product is blind to us right now. All of our other weapons are built for and shipped to the US military.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Has the military had many problems with your products?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;No, as a matter of fact in 1998 FNMI was awarded the U. S. Army Materiel Command CP Squared Award in the Contractor Performance Certification Program. To my knowledge, we are the only one in the small arms industry that has this award. There have only been seventeen recipients in the entire defense industry. Records from the military testing of our weapons are excellent. For example, on the M240B, 83,000 rounds were fired without a mission failure. The reason they stopped at 83,000 was that their test was done. We don’t know how much more the gun could have operated and these numbers are hard to believe, but they are U. S. numbers.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Do you make any products for the Special Operations Command?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;SOCOM is looking for a lightweight 5.56 machinegun. Testing started recently on our lightweight version of the M249, and it will probably be a couple months before we will know the outcome of the Navy’s testing.</p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;We call our version the M249 SPW (Special Purpose Weapon). It includes characteristics which lighten the weapon while maintaining the reliability and durability of the weapon.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: Tell us about your facility.</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;The facility itself is 140,000 square feet. This includes the manufacturing area with state of the art CNC machining equipment as well as conventional equipment. We do our own in-house heat treating and surface finishes. The finishes include hard chroming of components and black phosphate on exterior surfaces. We have our own tool room to maintain tools and cutters, which can also be used as a model shop to manufacture a new bracket or item that we need to install either a weapon or a mount on a vehicle. We have an external bunker that is divided into two sections that house the government-furnished ammo. The commercial ammo for non-government testing is in a separate bunker. We currently have about 350 employees with the manufacturing areas working ten-hour shifts Monday through Thursday and the administrative staff and offices working five days a week. FNMI is a full house shop with our own engineering department where we do independent research and development on our products.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large is-style-default"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="557" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-191.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-18551" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-191.jpg 557w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-191-239x300.jpg 239w" sizes="(max-width: 557px) 100vw, 557px" /><figcaption>Sal Fanelli preparing to demonstrate the P90 with it&#8217;s 50 round magazine at the 1997 NDIA Small Arms Firepower Demonstration in Reno, NV.</figcaption></figure>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What role does the BATF play at your facility?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;The BATF has a role with the various machineguns that we have in the sales and marketing group that we use for demonstrations. We are not allowed to use Government guns with Government serial numbers on them for demonstrations. We manufacture special machineguns with commercial serial numbers for demonstrations, and BATF controls those. Weapons that go to non-DOD customers such as the Coast Guard, the Department of Energy and police agencies have registration through the BATF.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What weapons do the Coast Guard and Department of Energy purchase?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;The DOE has selected the M249 and the M240B as their weapons of choice for machineguns for security at nuclear sites and purchase these from us. The Coast Guard uses the M240 family of weapons including the ground version and the airframe version for their boats and helicopters.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Do you sell many military weapons to law enforcement?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff:</em>&nbsp;Police departments can own military weapons. Some departments have purchased M249’s or at least had demonstrations of the weapons for evaluation. As far as the M16’s, we are restricted by the license between Colt and the U. S. Government and our contract to manufacturing these weapons solely for the U. S. military. We do not sell any M16’s or M16 related parts to anyone unless they are on the contract.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Tell us about your law enforcement division.</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;FNMI, with guidance from FN Herstal, started up the law enforcement division. There are certain products within the company that fit into law enforcement needs. For example, since FN owns Browning and Winchester, they tapped the resources from those two organizations for rifles and shotguns. Browning USA is headquartered in Morgan, Utah. Winchester/U.S. Repeating Arms is located in New Haven, Connecticut. Bill Forsen heads up our law enforcement division. (At this point, Bill Forsen joins in the interview).</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Tell us about your law enforcement products.</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Bill:</em>&nbsp;The flagships of our division are the P90 machinegun and the Five-Seven polymer pistol for the law enforcement market. In addition is the polymer framed Model Forty-Nine Pistol. The reason it is named Forty-Nine is because it is available in both .40 caliber and 9 mm. As you can see, the “FN” is prominent in the names of each pistol. The Forty-Nine is available to both law enforcement and commercial sales and is made here in South Carolina. This pistol has two unique features. First, there is no spring tension on the striker until you pull the trigger so it is very safe. It is a true double action. Second, the patented rail system is extended and modular instead of molded in. Worn or cracked rails can be replaced without scrapping the frame. FN Herstal produces a double action version of the Browning High Power pistol which we will be bringing into the country to sell under the FN brand. There is also a possibility that we may begin marketing the single action version of the High Power in the future.</p>



<p><br>We are planning on introducing a new shotgun and precision rifle, in conjunction with U. S. Repeating Arms, for sale to law enforcement under the FN banner. The shotgun will be pump action, available in 18 or 14-inch versions, with screw-in chokes with improved cylinder and modified tubes. The interchangeable chokes will allow a department to fine-tune the shotgun for use with full power or reduced recoil shells. All steel components on the guns will be phosphate treated instead of the normal bluing. The receivers will come drilled and tapped for optics or ghost ring sights. The stock has been shortened to a thirteen and a half inches to compensate for body armor. The FN Special Police Rifle will be similar to the pre-64 Model 70 and will include the controlled round feed extractor and three-position safety which will allow the bolt to be opened in the safe condition. A detachable box magazine will be used and the chamber and bore will be chrome plated to extend barrel life and reduce cleaning intervals. An HS Precision bedded stock will support the barreled action.<br><br><strong><em>SAR: How did the P90 submachinegun come to be?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;FN did a survey of military services in several countries. The survey revealed that only 10% of the military personnel were actually out there fighting, while the rest were support troops. These others include the truck drivers, cooks, radio operators, and logistics types. If these soldiers got involved in military action, the fighting would be very close, at ranges of less than 50 meters. For them, having a long assault rifle or complicated weapon didn’t make sense. At the same time, NATO was predicting all enemy infantry would soon be wearing some level of soft body armor. NATO was considering replacing 9mm weapons because they were no longer lethal on the battlefield. FN took these two concepts, put them together, and then developed the ammunition and the weapon at the same time. The result was the P90 with the 5.7mm X 28mm round called the SS190. This round can penetrate body armor out to 200 meters in the P90 and 150 meters in the Five-Seven pistol. The purpose of this system was to replace aging handguns and submachineguns shooting 9mm and other handgun calibers. The P90 has been adopted by 19 countries around the world. This means they have evaluated them and purchased a significant quantity, which are in use today either in the military, law enforcement, dignitary protection, or presidential security and protection role.</p>



<p><em><strong>SAR: Who are some of the countries that have adopted the P90?</strong></em></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;It is in service with several units in France, Belgium and Portugal. There are many more countries that are still evaluating the P90 for potential use.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What is involved in transferring a P90 to a law enforcement agency?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Bill:</em>&nbsp;First of all, the guns and ammunition must be imported on a BATF Form 6 and placed in a customs bonded warehouse. We are currently using a warehouse in Atlanta, but we plan to locate our own bonded warehouse here in the near future. The second step of this process is to have the items released from the bonded warehouse on another Form 6 when a department wants to make a purchase. Both of these steps require dealing with the BATF Imports Branch. Next, the weapon must be registered with the NFA Branch and later transferred to the agency. These two branches of the BATF do not have a whole lot to do with each other routinely as they have different responsibilities.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Tell us about your involvement with the National Defense Industrial Association.</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;Within FN, we feel that NDIA, in particular the small arms division, is very important to us. It allows us contact with government, academia, and other small arms companies. It provides an avenue for us to get out to many people at one time to talk about new products, what we’re developing, what we’re looking at, and whatever information we want to release that we think others need to know. The NDIA also allows for great teaming. For example, with the P90, when we knew we needed to have a suppressor, it gave us the opportunity to meet some people who did suppressor work. It also gives us the opportunity to work closely with government folks so that we really understand exactly what they are looking for. What’s on paper in black and white can easily be misunderstood, so that’s why it’s important for us to have face-to-face contact and meetings with them at NDIA events.</p>



<p><br>Years ago, NDIA was looking for corporate sponsorship to help the organization to grow. I checked with the FN executive staff for my participation, and they agreed. FNMI agreed to send me once or twice a year to steering committee meetings. At one of these meetings several years ago, I was asked to be the session chairman for the firepower division. Again, I checked with management, told them this would mean more involvement, and they agreed. This means that as session chairman, I have the task every year to locate a small arms firing range that can be used for demonstrations. I work with the local range people to make sure that we have everything we need, pass information back and forth to the various companies that want to demonstrate their products, organize it, choreograph it to ensure that it goes off as smoothly as possible. These demonstrations give the participants great exposure to other companies, the media, and all DOD personnel for their products.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Where’s the small arms symposium being held this year?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;It’s going to be held in Indianapolis, Indiana with the firepower demo at Camp Atterbury, which is one half hour away. The meeting is scheduled for August 28-31, 2000.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: What are some of the memorable moments from the past few demos?</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Sal:</em>&nbsp;The most memorable part from Reno three years ago was when the Navy showed up with their GAU-18 on the platform and shot at that vehicle. Two years ago, at Fort Benning, the most memorable moment there was the deer coming across the range along with the Navy showing off their Fast Attack Vehicle with all the various weapons and the quick conversion from one configuration to another. Last year, in New Jersey, the highlight was when J.D. Jones shot his .50 caliber pistol at a tank 800 meters away and hit it. There have been a lot of memorable things that have happened, and I could go on for hours with these stories. Someone always goes above and beyond the call of duty to have a great demo. HK, Knight’s Armament, the U. S. Navy and many others put on fantastic demonstrations. I am sure that this year will be exciting as well.</p>



<p><strong><em>SAR: Thanks for sharing your time and thought with our readers.</em></strong></p>



<p><em>Jeff/Sal/Bill:</em>&nbsp;You’re welcome.</p>



<p><strong>FN Manufacturing, Inc.</strong><br>797 Clemson Road<br>P.O. Box 24257<br>Columbia, SC 29224<br>PH (803) 736-0522<br>Fax (803) 736-9949<br>Website: www.fnmfg.com</p>



<p><strong>National Defense Industrial Association</strong><br>2111 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 400<br>Arlington, VA 22201-3061<br>PH (703)522-1820<br>FAX (703)522-1885<br>Website: www.ndia.org</p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V3N9 (June 2000)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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		<title>HK Unveils New Personal Defense Weapon</title>
		<link>https://smallarmsreview.com/hk-unveils-new-personal-defense-weapon/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SAR Staff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<category><![CDATA[V3N6 (Mar 2000)]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[HK Unveils]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[HK Unveils New Personal Defense Weapon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[March 2000]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[SAR]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://dev.smallarmsreview.com/?p=1522</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[During a recent small arms symposium in the UK in September Heckler &#038; Koch released information on a new Personal Defense Weapon for the first time publicly.  Rumored for some time to be in development at HK’s “skunk works” in Oberndorf Germany, the existence of what some are calling a revolutionary weapon has been confirmed.]]></description>
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<p>By The Small Arms Review Editorial Staff</p>



<p><em>During a recent small arms symposium in the UK in September Heckler &amp; Koch released information on a new Personal Defense Weapon for the first time publicly. &nbsp;Rumored for some time to be in development at HK’s “skunk works” in Oberndorf Germany, the existence of what some are calling a revolutionary weapon has been confirmed.</em></p>



<p>Little detailed information is available at this time and few photo’s. the new HK PDW is yet another totally new weapon from HK at a time when few other firearms companies are developing much of anything new. The PDW joins the ever increasing list of new HK’s along with the G36 and SL8-1 rifles, .45 and .40 caliber UMP submachine guns and various new pistol models like the USP Expert and a new centerfire .46 ACP carbine called the USC shown at the 1999 SHOT Show and expected to be available on the U.S. market later this year.</p>



<p>To describe the PDW as revolutionary as some may do may be stretching things a bit. As a bullet launcher this new PDW still kills by kinetic energy as firearms have been doing for centuries. Certainly this new personal weapon can be classified as a substantial development in this relatively new category of Personal Defense Weapons, small easily portable weapons about the size of a machine pistol or small submachine gun but a weapon shooting a non-pistol cartridge.</p>



<p>What is known about the HK PDW is that it is chambered for a new proprietary cartridge developed jointly by HK and Royal Ordnance, HK’s parent company and the UK’s premier small arms ammunition manufacturer. The PDW fires a small 4.6mm high velocity cartridge that looks more like a small rifle cartridge than that of a pistol round. The overall length of the round is 1.5 inches and contains a 25-grain projectile with a reported muzzle velocity of 2,378 feet per second. A copper-plated solid steel projectile develops @ 310 foot pounds of muzzle energy and is said to develop recoil far below that of 9mm handguns. According to the HK briefing presented in England the 4.6X30mm round will defeat threat body armor comprised of 1.6 millimeters of titanium and 20 layers of Kevlar at ranges beyond 200 meters with sufficient energy to inflict serious wounds after defeating the ballistic protection. Various types of rounds are under development to include a ball round, steel core penetrator round and a machined copper “CQB” cartridge for use in close quarters battle were over-penetration is unwanted. A tracer and frangible round for the PDW are also being finalized.</p>



<p>Actual firing prototypes of the PDW exist and have been appearing at the more recent U.S. defense expositions where the accompanying photographs were taken. Availability of production weapons is said to be scheduled for late 2,000 and ammunition is already in production and available from the Royal Ordnance factory in England. The weapon is very small indeed and resembles a large handgun. A briefing slide in fact compared the new HK PDW with the HK .45 ACP MK23 Pistol and while certainly larger the weight of the two weapons when fully loaded (20 rounds in the PDW, 12 rounds in the MK23) is nearly identical at 2.86 pounds. For sake of comparison the PDW is 1/2 inch longer than the HK 9mm MP5K without buttstock and just over two pounds lighter.</p>


<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="535" height="700" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-151.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-17979" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-151.jpg 535w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/002-151-229x300.jpg 229w" sizes="(max-width: 535px) 100vw, 535px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption"><em>Size comparison. The new HK PDW (top) compared with the MP5K (bottom). The new HK PDW is nearly identical to the MP5K in overall length but is 2 pounds lighter. HK says it can be fired effectively with one hand and has a maximum effective range of beyond 200 meters.</em></figcaption></figure>
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<p>According to HK the PDW is designed to be fired effectively with one hand unlike the much larger and heavier FN P90 submachine gun, once referred to as a Personal Defense Weapon. The FN 5.7mm family of weapons that include the P90 and Five Seven pistol is clearly HK’s primary competitor in this relatively new weapons category. With its optional 40 round magazine fully loaded the HK PDW weighs in at 3.39 pounds compared with the P90 with 50 rounds loaded at over 7 pounds. The HK PDW is more than 6 inches shorter in length than the P90 as well making it far more portable as a true PDW must be.</p>



<p>According to HK’s data the 4.6mm round fired from the PDW provides the capabilities of a 5.56mm rifle or carbine out to ranges of just beyond 200 meters yet from a firearm that can actually be carried like a pistol. (SAR has not yet seen the gelatin tests or ballistics on this round) Shoulder rigs and thigh holsters offering quick deployment like that of a handgun holster are rumored to be under development by HK for their PDW. This looks like a head to head battle brewing between HK and FN in a weapons category that has yet to be embraced by many potential users but is slowly taking shape as future potential defensive armament for personal protection of military and law enforcement personnel.</p>



<p>What we know of the weapon is very interesting. A fold-down vertical foregrip is positioned forward of the trigger guard and below the barrel. This allows the weapon to be fired using one or two hands and in conjunction with a small slide-out buttstock concealed within the polymer receiver of the weapon. The fairly central location of the pistol grip, which houses the flush mounted 20-round magazine, allows for practical use as a one handed gun unlike most machine pistols.</p>



<p>The HK PDW is gas operated employing a clean shooting system rumored to be similar to that used so successfully in the HK G36 weapons system. A multi-lug rotating bolt head provides for a secure seal of the breech during firing. All operating controls of the PDW are fully ambidextrous to include the magazine and buttstock releases, the M16- like cocking handle and safety lever. The PDW provides the user with both semi-automatic and fully automatic modes of fire at a theoretical rate of @950 rounds per minute.</p>



<p>The HK Personal Defense Weapon provides the user with a forward assist, sling mounting positions and an integral Picatinny sight-mounting rail. The weapon is produced predominately from lightweight polymers and steel only when required. The PDW is said to require very little maintenance due to its unique short stroke gas operating system.</p>


<div class="wp-block-image is-style-default">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="700" height="519" src="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-147.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-17980" srcset="https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-147.jpg 700w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-147-300x222.jpg 300w, https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/003-147-600x445.jpg 600w" sizes="(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">New HK 4.6mm Personal Defense Weapon with stock and vertical foregrip stowed.a</figcaption></figure>
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<p>The sighting system for the PDW like the weapon itself is said to be still in the development stages. The sight pictured herein is being developed for Heckler &amp; Koch by Hensoldt, a division of Zeiss, and like the dual sight on the HK G36 rifle uses a collector to capture ambient light and illuminate a small red aiming dot. This dot can be seen with both eyes open whether the weapon is fired at arms length like a pistol or when shot from the shoulder using the buttstock for additional support. A tritium source within the sight or a battery recharged by the solar collector is being considered to power the dot during periods of low or no light. This extremely small sight, like everything else about the HK PDW and 4.6mm ammunition, is designed for lightweight and portability. HK even designed their own simple rail grabber sight base for the PDW sight. The presence of the Picatinny mounting rail will allow a wide range of sights to be attached to the PDW using currently available rail grabbers. A fixed from sight pot is provided on the weapon as is an adjustable rear Patridge style sight.</p>



<p>Certainly this new Heckler &amp; Koch Personal Defense Weapon marks a serious attempt to provide the true performance required of a personal weapon and in a package that can be easily carried and thus always available. If the weapon and new cartridge perform as claimed this new weapon could be the future choice of all categories of users. With a maximum effective range said to be somewhere between 200 and 300 meters the size of the weapon will allow it to be used effectively for VIP protection where the weapon must be concealed yet readily available It’s ability to defeat threat body armor and vehicle windshields and body panels would make it perfect for facilities defense where over-penetration and maximum range in urban areas might be of concern. Certainly in a classic role as a PDW for military pistols, drivers, artillery and armor crewman and behind the front line support personnel the PDW would be far better than a handgun and more portable and manageable than a rifle, carbine or smg, especially in confined spaces like vehicles, aircraft and within mobile communications trailers.</p>



<p>SAR will provide more detailed information on this newly emerging HK gun, as it becomes available.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-table aligncenter is-style-stripes"><table><tbody><tr><td class="has-text-align-center" data-align="center"><em>This article first appeared in Small Arms Review V3N6 (March 2000)</em></td></tr></tbody></table></figure>
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